ONE SOCIETY MANY CULTURES - EARLY DAY MOTION
Please ask your MP to sign EDM 1079 - Muslims in Britain.
You can do this easily by clicking on this link, http://www.onesocietymanycultures.org/edm1079 it takes less than two minutes.
The motion follows rising concerns about negative portrayal of Muslims in sections of the media and anti-Muslim demonstrations by extreme right wing groups such as the English Defence League, which recently marched on Parliament demanding the closure of the East London Mosque. If they had singled out a Church or Synagogue, there would rightly be an outcry.
We believe the targeting of communities in this way is creating a climate of fear and division, and undermines civil liberties and the right to freedom of expression. The motion welcomes the contribution of Muslim communities and their full participation in British society, including in politics.
EDM 1079 - Muslims in Britain :
“That this House opposes the increased demonisation of Muslims in sections of the media; expresses its deep concern at the recent visit to the House of Lords by the far right politician Geert Wilders; condemns the English Defence League demonstration outside Parliament in support of Geert Wilders and their slogans and placards inciting hatred, such as their demand for the closure of the East London Mosque, that will only lead to a climate of fear, division and disharmony; welcomes the participation and contribution of Muslims in British society, including in politics; believes that the full participation of all communities in the forthcoming general election is in the interests of democracy.”
Take action and click here to urge your MP to sign this important motion
One Society Many Cultures
“which recently marched on Parliament demanding the closure of the East London Mosque. If they had singled out a Church or Synagogue, there would rightly be an outcry.”
How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, support for the killing of British troops, etc?
There has been no shortage of criticism, rightly, of the Roman Catholic Church for covering up child abuse scandals, and they don’t get the left running to their aid crying that it is a smear campaign demonising Catholics.
The hosting of extremist preachers, and their messages, at ELM, have been exposed - not least by Bangladeshi Muslims themselves. The facts are there and all Socialist Unity and co have done is to signally fail to address the actual facts and instead try to smear those who have exposed or objected to such bigotry as bigots themselves. You really must try harder, the ‘Islamophobe!’ card is fast wearing out.
Comment by Stanislaw — 17 March, 2010 @ 3:25 pm
“If they had singled out a Church or Synagogue, there would rightly be an outcry…” Absolutely. And as if to prove that very point, up pops the comment at #1.
The whole point is that thugs are not marching demanding the closure of Westminster Cathedral or the Synagogue which is a part of the London Muslim Centre complex.
Comment by Nas — 17 March, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
1#How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, support for the killing of British troops, etc?
A lot more than you think probably, religion is all about elites and hatred hidden behind equality and love. How about an EDM stating This house believes that religion breeds hatred and contempt.
Comment by doom n gloom — 17 March, 2010 @ 4:27 pm
#1
“How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities,”
you don’t spend much time talking to evenagelical Christians, do you?
Comment by Andy Newman — 17 March, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
Nas,
“And as if to prove that very point, up pops the comment at #1.
The whole point is that thugs are not marching demanding the closure of Westminster Cathedral”
Of course they aren’t. Westminster Cathedral doesn’t host the preaching of hatred and support for terrorism. If it did, people would march against it. The whole point id that ELM IS hosting the preaching of hatred and plentiful evidence exists. Now stop ducking bleating that Muslims are being picked on, and answer the question:
“How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, support for the killing of British troops, etc?”
doom n gloom,
“A lot more than you think probably”
Then show which ones they are and, with evidence more substantial than ‘probably’. Personally, I’ll gladly condemn them as will many others.
“How about an EDM stating This house believes that religion breeds hatred and contempt.”
I’m in full agreement on that. It seems to license the propagation of views which would be widely greeted with contempt were they not claimed to be in the name of some invisible man in the sky.
Comment by Stanislaw — 17 March, 2010 @ 4:36 pm
@ Andy Newman,
““How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities,”
you don’t spend much time talking to evenagelical Christians, do you?”
No I don’t. I avoid having much to do with ‘devout’ religious people of any religion. I don’t like or particularly respect religion generally.
Now do please identify the specific churches, the specific preachers and the specific hatred, oppression of others and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities etc which is taking place.
And I’ll have no problem condemning them as well, unlike your mealy-mouthed refusal to condemn that incubator of misogyny, anti-semitism, support for terrorism and homophobia, the ELM. I’ll be particularly interested to hear which large London Churches host people who preach the undermining of democracy, that women who wear perfume are adultresses, that gay people should be killed, support for the killing of British troops etc.
The floor is yours Andy or anyone else. Let’s have the facts.
Comment by Stanislaw — 17 March, 2010 @ 4:45 pm
Stnislaw you are being a bit boring here now.
i) you are assuming that all or many Muslims share the views of a minority that you find offensive, and you are generalising - that is prejudice
ii) I am not going to help you spread your prejudiced against Muslims to Christians, suffice it to say that at least one Uk evangelical preacher was involved in encouraging the Ugandans to implement the death penalty for certain cases relating to homoexuaity in the last twelve months. you can research that yourself.
Comment by Andy Newman — 17 March, 2010 @ 4:51 pm
Scottish Bishop Speaks Out Against Homosexual Lobby;
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=27199
“In this New Year’s honors list, I saw actor Ian McKellen being honored for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail,” the bishop said.
This is but one example of an ongoing and militant campaign against homosexuals in Scotland by both Catholic and Protestant clergy.
They also continue to attack women’s reproductive rights.
But then white homophobes are of absolutely no interest to idiots like “Stanislaw”.
Comment by Eddie Truman — 17 March, 2010 @ 5:07 pm
Many of us are quite capable of opposing reactionary ideologies held by people of all colours.
Stanislaw, I’m glad to confirm that you are right when you say ” the ‘Islamophobe!’ card is fast wearing out”.
Here in Tower Hamlets there are plenty of Asians/Muslims/Bengalis (to use some of the labels people may identify themselves with) who are sick of being in any way associated with the East London Mosque and the being lumped together into an undifferentiated mass by the likes of Socialist Unity. There are massive divisions within the Asian/Bengali/Muslim ‘community’- and by seeking to cover up these divisions Socialist Unity are in fact taking the sides of the most powerful and reactionary ‘community leaders’.
I noticed that everyone who makes this or similar point on this blog usually gets called a racist within about 5 posts…
Comment by Rachel — 17 March, 2010 @ 5:50 pm
Many of us are quite capable of opposing reactionary ideologies held by people of all colours.
Stanislaw, I’m glad to confirm that you are right when you say ” the ‘Islamophobe!’ card is fast wearing out”.
Here in Tower Hamlets there are plenty of Asians/Muslims/Bengalis (to use some of the labels people may identify themselves with) who are sick of being in any way associated with the East London Mosque and the being lumped together into an undifferentiated mass by the likes of Socialist Unity. There are massive divisions within the Asian/Bengali/Muslim ‘community’- and by seeking to cover up these divisions Socialist Unity are in fact taking the sides of +the most powerful and reactionary ‘community leaders’.
I noticed that everyone who makes this or similar point on this blog usually gets called a racist within about 5 posts…
Comment by Rachel — 17 March, 2010 @ 5:52 pm
Rachel,
You seem to see Stanislav as a kindred spirit, which says everything we need to know about
the nature of your politics. So cut the crap, please.
Comment by SteveH — 17 March, 2010 @ 6:03 pm
I thought these might be of interest -
Paranoid Scottish Defence League abandons Facebook due to fear of “fakes”
Spinwatch
07 Mar 2010
How sectarian hooligans are killing off Scots far-right
Special Report, Billy Briggs
HeraldScotland
14 Mar 2010
David Miller, Professor of Sociology at the University of Strathclyde and founder of the politics website Spinwatch, said that the failure of the SDL to garner support also reflected the political landscape in Scotland.
He said: “I think it is related to the more consensual approach of the political parties in Scotland. The political class in England has not been as united against the EDL. The sight of Tory Annabel Goldie addressing an anti-racist demonstration on Glasgow Green is one obvious contrast.
Consensual politics kills fascism.
ps
#1
The last time I looked, the Queen was head of the British state and its established church - which means, in effect, British soldiers are in Afghanistan killing on behalf of the god of the British state.
Indeed, to celebrate St Paddy’s Day today, BBC State Radio 3 broadcast a live service from Christ Church Cathedral, Dublin - Church of Ireland fo course.
Not much evidence of British state toleration of Roman Catholicism, even on a notable day like today.
Comment by joe90 kane — 17 March, 2010 @ 6:04 pm
Steve H - what’s the crap? Do you disagree with what I said in my post?
Comment by Rachel — 17 March, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
Rachel,
Other than form an online friendship with the racist Stanislav you haven’t actually said anything.
What is it about confronting far right racism you disagree with? Why are you against this motion?
Comment by SteveH — 17 March, 2010 @ 6:43 pm
Rachel: I think you’d be better off trying to teach the Labour Party and its pork scratchings brigade about sowing divisions. Or what about the EDL - “close down East London Mosque”. Not racist of course. Just the victims of the politically correct brigade. Please.
Comment by Nas — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:01 pm
Good to see East London Mosque extract the following apology from the disgusting Sunday Express rag;
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/162866/East-London-Mosque
‘Our article of December 27, 2009 “Jet bomb ordered by 9/11 spiritual leader” stated that Anwar al Awlaki, the Yemen based cleric said to have inspired the failed plot to blow up a plane bound for Detroit, had spoken at the “radical” East London Mosque (ELM).
‘We would like to make clear that ELM works tirelessly to promote religious and social tolerance and to oppose violent extremism in all its forms. ELM tells us that it was not aware of any credible allegation of violent extremism against Anwar al Awlaki prior to the single occasion on which he spoke at the London Muslim Centre (LMC) at an event organised by an external organisation. ELM does not promote or support Anwar al Awlaki. ELM would not now permit Anwar al Awlaki to speak at ELM or the LMC.’
Comment by Eddie Truman — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:02 pm
Naz #2 :
“The whole point is that thugs are not marching demanding the closure of Westminster Cathedral”
Er … Westminster Cathedral, Sept 16 2006.
“Jesus Is The Slave of Allah”
“Pope Go To Hell”
“Islam Will Conquer Rome”
“May Allah Curse The Pope”
Now I’m not suggesting the nutjobs on that day represent all Muslims. But I don’t recall an Early Day Motion after that …
Comment by Laban — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:06 pm
Most religious groups are Far Right and that includes the Islamic ones, at the moment it is Islam that is getting demonised, before, and still is I suppose, the Irish Catholics, Jews and the poor Ulster Hun always gets the shitty end of the stick, this motion is outside the construct of class and as for “welcomes the participation and contribution of Muslims in British society” surely that must be questionable, “welcomes the participation and contribution of progressive Muslims in British society” I can accept.
Comment by doom n gloom — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:11 pm
“It seems to license the propagation of views which would be widely greeted with contempt were they not claimed to be in the name of some invisible man in the sky” - unfortunately, belief in an invisible man in the sky is not a necessary condition for propagating views which ought to be considered contemptible but are not by much of public opinion. The antics of the EDL threatening to march on Mosques is one such example.
What was the problem with Harrow Mosque, btw?
Comment by Nas — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
#18 “Most religious groups are Far Right..”
You’re so gauche it’s unbelievable.
Comment by Eddie Truman — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:26 pm
Thanks, Nas - calling me a racist (a fascist? fascist sympathiser?) exactly 5 posts after my own comment…
Comment by Rachel — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:36 pm
#21
Where exactly has Nas done this,Rachel?
Comment by Omar — 17 March, 2010 @ 7:50 pm
“#18 “Most religious groups are Far Right”
Malcolm X
Dr Martin Luther King
Gustavo Gutierrez
John-Bertrande Aristide
Desmond Tutu
Ali Shariati
Camillo Torres
oh yes, “far right” all of them
Comment by Andy Newman — 17 March, 2010 @ 8:50 pm
indeed more evidence of the “far right” nature of religous movements with this article I posted here only today:
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=5416
Comment by Andy Newman — 17 March, 2010 @ 8:52 pm
Stewart Headlam, Conrad Noel, Alan Ecclestone, Harriet Tubman, Rosemary Radford Ruether, Salma Yaqoob, Kenneth Leech, Berrigan Brothers, Sophie Scholl, Dorothee Solle, John Dear, Cornel West..and many more
Comment by RevRay — 17 March, 2010 @ 10:03 pm
Rachel, don’t worry. Newman’s spilled oceans of virtual ink defending Christian homophobia, so he’s well aware of the work of right wing anti-secularists. He’s now one of them.
His latest vocation as a paid enabler of Islamist bigots is more of the same. Any objection, of course, is slandered as racism. It’s analogous to being accused of ‘Facsism’ by a Stalinist. It’s meaningless.
Comment by Avocado Da Vinci — 17 March, 2010 @ 10:53 pm
23# this is a list of individuals, organised religion is essentially reactionary, it is the nature of the beast, I can say Judaism is Reactionary for instance yet quote
Marx
Chomsky
Trotsky
Dylan
Ted Grant
there are always individuals who are the exceptions, I believe it is essential to separate religion and politics. Jim Jones believed in primitive communism, not the best example, the role of the Quakers in the peace movement cannot be denied yet can passive resistance always be condoned, perhaps its my personal take on things but we are spending too much time arguing over something that does not exist in any manner portrayed by these cults.
Comment by doom n gloom — 18 March, 2010 @ 12:39 am
@ Andy Newman
“you are assuming that all or many Muslims share the views of a minority that you find offensive, and you are generalising - that is prejudice”
I do not and have not remotely assumed that “all or many Muslims share the views of a minority that I find offensive”, indeed I pointed out that Bangladeshi Muslims particularly had objected to the ELM. Nowhere have I criticised Muslims as a majority or as a whole. It is you yourself, Andy, who have defended ELM and treated criticism of it as criticism of Muslims generally. You are a liar. Substantiate your claim or retract. What I find really grotesque is how you treat any gay person who objects to being demonized by a number of the preachers at the ELM as being a bigot. Sorry Andy, how awful of me to object to people saying I shoupd be killed. Strangely enough, I don’t laugh off people who preach that I should be killed as ‘unfortunately reactionary’, I think they are scum who should be arrested. Now tell me why gay people should put up with it. Because we are inferior to Islamist preachers? Because we are inconvenient when it’s your nice religious friends coming out with that vile shit against us? Do explain.
@ Steve H
“Other than form an online friendship with the racist Stanislav…”
Point out where I have said anything racist or retract. As is common on this place, you have no response to specific criticisms of respect’s friends apart from to call your opponent a racist. I don’t know Rachel and she hasn’t ’struck up an online friendship’ with me. She just appears to have agreed with one post I made. How typical that Respect supporters resort to vilification and smear rather than actually countering points.
“What is it about confronting far right racism you disagree with?”
What is it about misogyny, homophobia and anti-semitism at the ELM that you refuse to see as right wing?
@ Eddie Truman,
“In this New Year’s honors list, I saw actor Ian McKellen being honored for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail,” the bishop said.
This is but one example of an ongoing and militant campaign against homosexuals in Scotland by both Catholic and Protestant clergy.
They also continue to attack women’s reproductive rights.
But then white homophobes are of absolutely no interest to idiots like “Stanislaw”.
Having spent most of my life in Scotland, and as a gay person, I can assure you I am fully aware of white homophobes and fully aware of the threat they present. I am also able to understand what constitutes a ‘militant campaign’. Someone calling you an abomination is bad enough. Funnily enough, someone calling you an abomination who deserves to be killed counts as worse. But then I doubt you, Eddie Truman, you smug hypocrite, have ever had to rank the people ranged against you, some of whom ‘merely’ detest you and other who both detest you and say you should be dead, in terms of threat. Funnily enough, I find the latter group more threatening. Treating the two as the same is a luxury parlour game that self-righteous heterosexuals can indulge in to their hearts’ content. I’d welcome your demonstration of show how they are both the same. If you are on the receiving end, I can assure you that one is depressing and the other is actually alarming. Now call me a bigot for being even more concerned about people who hate me and want me dead than about people who ‘merely’ hate me.
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 1:16 am
Andy - you could have mentioned William Wilberforce.
Comment by Laban — 18 March, 2010 @ 8:49 am
Stanislaw @ 28: ‘call me a bigot’ - don’t be silly. If I were to call you such, it would be because of:
‘How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, support for the killing of British troops, etc’
which was in the first post on this thread. The church that Tony Blair attends hosts such a person, and I don’t want to be unfair on the Catholic Church, which has the misfortune to host such a man. You’ve selected mosques only, therefore your point is biased, by which (yes, Rachel) I mean racist.
All that remains is for me to wonder why I’m feeding obvious trolls…
Comment by richsw — 18 March, 2010 @ 9:08 am
“The church that Tony Blair attends hosts such a person,”
So who exactly is this person who preaches hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, support for the killing of British troops, etc, and what exactly has he said to fit those categories? And if you wish to equate that church with ELM, how many other examples have you got of such people preaching at the church? And why do you ignore the fact that ELM has hosted NUMEROUS such preachers in the past few years alone? You need about 20 examples to have any credible kind of ‘parallel’. But go ahead and name a mere five and provide the specific evidence. Off you go then, put your money where your big mouth is.
“therefore your point is biased, by which (yes, Rachel) I mean racist.
All that remains is for me to wonder why I’m feeding obvious trolls…”
Like all those others who’ve insinuated or directly made the ‘racist’ accusation on this thread, you haven’t provided the information. All that remains for me is to wonder why I’m replying to people who can’t or won’t address actual points and rely instead on trying to smear their opponent.
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 9:45 am
Stanislaw, have you checked yet into which British Christian churchman has been involved in the debates about homosexuality in Uganda?
Comment by Andy Newman — 18 March, 2010 @ 9:48 am
Andy Newman, I have done you the courtesy of answering your original accusations and have also asked you some questions.
Please do me the courtesy of addressing what I have said, rather than using your usual ‘debate’ tactic of asking an ever-expanding questions while conspicuously ducking counter-points and counter-questions or of substantiating your predictable and inussportable accusations of racism.
If you or any one else on this thread can fully address:
1) Where I have criticised “most or all Muslims”, as opposed to those running the ELM
2) Explain to me why gay people should put up with Islamist preachers saying they should be put to death and how a place that regularly hosts such bigots should have the right to be called ‘moderate’ or ‘tolerant’?
3) as requested previously, “identify the specific churches, the specific preachers and the specific hatred, oppression of others and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities etc which is taking place.”
This thread is about religious preachers of hatred - or in your fairytale-land supposedly innocent and moderate preachers of tolerance - in Britain. Why are you trying to change the topic? If you start a thread on Christian bigots in Africa or the US I’ll be very willing to condemn those guilty of such bigotry. Strangely enough I’m more concerned with what is preached within Britain. it’s probably easy enough for your to treat preachers talking about killing others as unimportant when it’s not you being discussed as such.
But then it’s impossible for you to address criticism of ELM honestly anyway. You are a Respect supporter and Respect are up to their necks in league with those who run ELM and who host such bigoted preachers. For all your spouting of egalitarian slogans, you are in alliance with extreme misogynists, anti-semites, homophobes, supporters of terrorism etc. That is to say, objectively you and others here are fellow travellers of the far right. I hope you think your grand plan -whatever it is - is worth such cynical betrayal of principples and minorities. Personally I think it stinks, and I hold the allies of those who preach hatred against myself and other minorities in the same contempt as those who do the preaching itself.
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 10:22 am
Ok let us make this easy for you.
At the key formative stage of the campaign to bring in draconian laws against gays in Uganda there was an ecumenical conference on the issue in Nairobi, that was addressed by not only by Rick Warren (who presided over the blessing at Obama;s inauguration) but also John Stott, a leading evangelical in the Church of England, but also former chaplain to Her Majesty the Queen.
Both of whom have ultra-conservative views on sexual and gender matters, athough both of them are also liberal on economic justice issues. The Nairobi conference was a crucial legitimisation of the campaign that has led to the homophobic campaign.
Now these Christians do not support the death penalty, obviously, but if we look at the position of the Episcopalian church of Uganda, then they favour life imprisonment for gays.
The Ugandan bishops have decined to attend the Lambeth Conference, hosted by the Church of England in recent years, due to disagreements over homosexuality, but the Church of England continues to invite them.
More significanty, Church of Engand vicar Sandy Millar was consecrated as a Bishop in London by Most Rev’d Henry Luke Orombi, Archbishop of Uganda; and this was given the formal blessing of the Archbishop of Canterbury (in the intrests of church unity). Sandy Millar was made a Bishop specificaly becasue of his anti-gay views.
So your argument against Islam, is that there is eveidence of relatively marginal figures booking rooms in the ELM complex, and speaking with a message that is not endorsed by the leadership of the MOsque.
In contrast, you are uttery silent, and uninterested in very senior and influential people in the Episcopalian community that have official blessing by the estabished church, and some of whom have at least given moral stimulus to the campiagn for hate legislation against gays in Uganda.
Comment by Andy Newman — 18 March, 2010 @ 10:45 am
Omar in number 21 - I am referring to Post 15. Nas wrote:
“Rachel: I think you’d be better off trying to teach the Labour Party and its pork scratchings brigade about sowing divisions. Or what about the EDL - “close down East London Mosque”. Not racist of course. Just the victims of the politically correct brigade. Please.”
Nas is suggesting that I do not oppose the EDL, or even defend them as victims. What a disgusting and desperate move.
I object to Respect trying to cultivate the impression that criticism of the ELM coming from left/secularists/progressive Bengalis or is the same as what comes from the EDL.
As an anti-zionist Jew I despise the Board of Jewish Deputies and their claim to speak for me(you see, it is not necessary to have slavish obedience to one’s reactionary ‘community leaders’). Many fascists don’t much like Jewish organisations either - that does not mean we have common cause. I can distinguish between anti-semitism and opposition to rightwing ideologies. I can distinguish between Islamophobia and opposition to rightwing ideologies. Deep down I think many Respect supports can too.
Comment by Rachel — 18 March, 2010 @ 10:50 am
#33 This is rich
What I am discusing is figures within the Church of England, here in the UK, who feel strongly enough against gays to give stimulus to a homophoic hate campaign in Uganda. This is not some fantasy world where marginal figures on the fringe of a minority religion in the UK fantasise about what they would do if the were in position of power; this is something that is actually happening involving a government, and where Ugandan gays are potentially facing death or life imprisonment.
But as you say “it’s probably easy enough for your to treat preachers talking about killing others as unimportant when it’s not you being discussed as such”
You are obvioulsy more animiated against black Musims in the Uk than you are motivated by solidarity with black gays in Uganda.
the very fact that you don’t even think that homophobia is a problem in the Christian churches tels us everything we need to know about you real agenda.
Comment by Andy Newman — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:01 am
“Now these Christians do not support the death penalty, obviously…”
So why the hell are you comparing them with the likes of Abu Usamah, Bilal Philips and a number of other preachers at ELM who explicitly do?
Here’s a challenge for you, Andy Newman: imagine someone saying they hate you and then imagine someone else saying they hate you and you should be killed. See if you can figure out which you would prioritise as a problem. I’ve already challenged you to do that.
I know from personal experience the difference between verbal contempt, verbal abuse, verbal threats and actual physical attack on grounds of sexuality, and I can assure you they are not the same category. Someone calling you a faggot is not the same as someone calling you a faggot while they and several friends punch and kick you in the head. How fucking dare you argue as if they are the same, as if words are the same as fists, sticks and stones? Your parallel is the revolting posturing of someone secure in the knowledge he’ll never be on the end of such categories of treatment.
“but if we look at the position of the Episcopalian church of Uganda, then they favour life imprisonment for gays.”
And if we look at the position of the Mullah’s regime in Iran - sorry, the Islamic Republic of Iran of which you are such a devoted apologist - they actually execute gays. So what about the whataboutery? What have either to do with the preaching of hatred and violence in places of worship Britain, funded by taxpayers money and described by people such as yourself as ‘moderate’? You, who shill for a regime that actually executes gay people, and for preachers who advocate the same, are trying to lecture me about the scumbag Christians in Uganda who seek to emulate your Iranian heroes?
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:05 am
20#You’re so gauche it’s unbelievable.
Sorry Eddie, working class hivnae a fuck whit yer talkin aboot so for fucks sake Eddie go back to your little middle class pseudo socialist chatter group, you have lost all sense of reality and have no connection with the working classes at all, religion is the opiate of the masses except in Scotland where it is talking crap. Religion at its very base is a reactionary process designed to defend the rights and properties of the ruling classes and if that is not far right imaginary being knows what is. See yez efter the election, ther’es fuck a unity on this blog.
Comment by doom n gloom — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:07 am
#35
Rachel, I get where you’re coming from but surely you see that at a time of increased hostility toward Muslims generally, obsessive focus on a small Muslim org ( which has had an awful lot of unsubstantiated accusations levelled at it) can give the impression of a deeper, more-visceral hatred of that community?
Comment by Omar — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:11 am
“the very fact that you don’t even think that homophobia is a problem in the Christian churches tels us everything we need to know about you real agenda.”
The fact that you present pure, unsubstatiated strawmen as ‘facts’ shows what a contemptible and dishonest creature you are. I am perfectly aware that homophobia is a problem in Christian churches. As someone whose been plenty of times on the receiving end of different degrees of homophobia, I know that some are more of a serious worry than others. Who are you or any other straight person to lecture me on the relative threats of different homophobes?
My real ‘agenda’ is simply my personal right to live in my own country without being demonised or threatened by fellow citizens. Some of them are doing so with impunity, even inciting the killing of people such as myself, and being defended by the likes of you and others on the left. If I was a Muslim seeking that, you would be wholehearted in your support. But in your ’socialism’ some minorities are evidently less equal than others, indeed they’re damned inconvenient if they object.
My solidarity with gay people in Uganda is not affected to my objection to being vilified by the likes of Abu Usamah and co in my own country. Why would it be?
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:18 am
#37
“So why the hell are you comparing them with the likes of Abu Usamah, Bilal Philips and a number of other preachers at ELM who explicitly do?”
The episcopal church of Uganda was persuaded away from supporting the death penalty by international pressure, but continues to support LIFE IMPRIONMENT for gays, in Ugandan gaols.
“I know from personal experience the difference between verbal contempt, verbal abuse, verbal threats and actual physical attack on grounds of sexuality, and I can assure you they are not the same category. “
Yes,. but being “outed” on the front pages of mass circulatin newsapers, beaten up and driven from your job (which have already hapened in the progrom like attitude in Uganda) and now facing life imprisonment for their sexual orientation is in another category altogether.
Look Stanisaw, you have been caught wth your pants down here. You asked indignantly at #1
“How many churches or synagogues in Britain are regularly hosting people who preach hatred, oppression and even violence against other religious groups, social minorities, “
I have gven you examples from the Church of England of people, the Assitant Bishop of LOndon Sandy Millar and Paul Stott, who do preach homophobia. You are not interested.
The Lambeth Conference also continues to invite Bishops from Uganda, knowing their homophobic views.
And in response - you talk about Iran!!!
Incidently I refer you to the work by Human Rights Watch about Iran and gays, which contradicts your assertion.
You clearly have a disproportionate concern abiout marginal figures on the fringe of Islam, and very ittle interest in homphobia n the Christian churches. And I have just given one or two examples, it is quite possible t fill a book with hate speak against gays by Christians and Jews. but you only care about what the Musims say
Comment by Andy Newman — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:22 am
#40
Stanislaw:
“Some of them are doing so with impunity, even inciting the killing of people such as myself, and being defended by the likes of you and others on the left”
This isn’t true. No one has defended here the hate speak against gays.
What we have done is refuse to generalise and assume that all Muslims share that view, and not to hold the owners of the buiding responsible for things said in it by other people not under their control.
Comment by Andy Newman — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:24 am
“What we have done is refuse to generalise and assume that all Muslims share that view,”
And as I have said before, nor have I done that. I don’t assume most or all Muslims hold such views. My criticisms have been specifically of ELM and its policy of regularly hosting such preachers. You are falsely and completely unfoundedly treating that as an attack on all Muslims, and dishonestly presenting it as such.
“and not to hold the owners of the buiding responsible for things said in it by other people not under their control.”
So they have no control over who is allowed to speak there, no means of preventing them speaking there? You are taking the piss.
Comment by Stanislaw — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:38 am
@ Andy…stanslilaw is a racist…just check out some of his posts on HP Sauce…what an awful, awful man he is
Comment by saeed — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:41 am
I don’t assume most or all Muslims hold such views. My criticisms have been specifically of ELM and its policy of regularly hosting such preachers. You are falsely and completely unfoundedly treating that as an attack on all Muslims, and dishonestly presenting it as such.
you are a filthy liar…i am going to lionk to some of stans comments over at HP in a bit
let me have a look at HP SAUCE a
Comment by saeed — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:42 am
Stanislaw, doom and gloom, Rachel and Laban
In Britain ‘anti-clericalism’ is rarely progresive. England is probably the least religious country in the world- that does not make it a progressive one.
Since the aristocratic looting of the Churches and monasteries under the Tudors,it was commonplace for the upper classes to adopt varieties of agnosticism and atheism, all the while preaching to the massses obedience to Church and to the State which had co-opted it. The English working class has largely absorbed this aristocratic disdain for clericalism, rather like its love of horse racing; it has not, for example engaged in popular uprisings and assaults on Church property as occurred repeatedly in countries like Spain and France.
As a result, it is commonplace on the British ‘Left’ to approach religion in a wholly one-sided manner, as an object of derision, suitable for name-calling, provocations, closures, bans, etc.
This was not Marx’s approach, among others, http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/marxrel.html.
Tellingly, everyone has heard the ‘opiate of the people’ phrase. Too few in Britain know that it is immediately proceeded by, “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.”
Worse, this one-sided appraisal of religion prevalent on the British ‘Left’ is applied in a one-sided way, against the most oppressed in society, which currently in Britain means Muslims. So, some who genuinely consider themselves of the ‘Left’ are happy to bay for the closure of mosques, bans for Islamic organisations, to demand changes in customs including mode of dress, precisely echoing our divide-and-conquer rulers.
Never once is there a British Left campaign against the reactionary musings of Dr Carey, no attempt to isolate the many Church leaders who sanctify imperialist wars with crusading ideology, no efforts to stop British and US troops being aided in their endeavours by a multitude of chaplains, padres, priests and vicars, all paid by taxes levied on civilians.
Anti-Muslim views in Britain today are wholly reactionary, and remain wholly reactionary even with the patchy veneer of ‘anti-clericalism’.
Comment by ahmed — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:53 am
#22 Indeed, Omar. I’ve always been highly suspicious of people who, when you say something general about racism, pop up and say, “Ah, so you’re calling me a racist now.” Why do they think that general condemnation of racist attitudes is directed at them? The only people who ought to think that are, well, racists.
Comment by Nas — 18 March, 2010 @ 11:59 am
It seems to me that the EDM is calling for condemnation of people who hold views that are every bit as chauvanistic and offensive as those being espoused in certain instances at the ELM. All such views warrant criticism and condemnation.
Surely the way to get as much support for this EDM (presumably the desired effect?) is to frame it in such a way as to NOT seek to defend, by name, a single institution with a questionable reputation?
Comment by Paul — 18 March, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
@ Saeed
“Andy…stanslilaw is a racist…just check out some of his posts on HP Sauce…what an awful, awful man he is”
You still haven’t got over the fact that not all of us bow to your arrogant and bigoted assumptiuon that
a) Muslims hold a higher victim status in society than other minorities under all circumstances, and that consequently
b) in any dispute between Muslimds and mebers of another minority, the members od the other minority ar eto blame, and ‘racist’, even when
c) the dispute is caused by Islamist clerics calling for members of said other minority to be hated, oppressed or killed.
What a hypocritical and disgustingly bigoted religious supremacist you are.
Comment by Anonymous — 18 March, 2010 @ 4:17 pm
Omar at #35, yes, I agree with that and that’s why we have to be careful and consistent.
By the way the controversies surrounding the ELM and its disputes with other sections of the Muslim community in Tower Hamlets go back decades.
Comment by Rachel — 18 March, 2010 @ 6:42 pm
#49 There is no other minority in Britain that is currently subject to anything like the tirade of bigotry that Muslims are. It’s the purblind refusal of people such as yourself to recognise it that is part of the respectable status Muslim-bashing has achieved.
Comment by Nas — 18 March, 2010 @ 6:50 pm
#27 - Aren’t you confusing Jews with adherents of Judaism? With the exception of Dylan, aren’t they all atheists?
Comment by Jim — 18 March, 2010 @ 7:14 pm
52# Yup Jim, I am, and not only that I think Dylan is Born Again Christian, bit off a dickhead at times, never mind, its only a gameshow.
Comment by doom n gloom — 19 March, 2010 @ 10:36 am
Zombie church survives with state support
David Jay
Socialist democracy ireland
17 March 2010
Today Ireland is a zombie society. Almost every aspect of civic society is in decay: financial institutions, political parties, trade union leaderships and a zombie peace process in the North. What they all have in common is that no level of scandal, no demonstration of corruption, no matter how public, seems to spell the end for any of these institutions.
Chief among the zombie institutions is the Catholic Church. Its followers used its special position to mutilate women who had difficult births in order to meet Catholic dogma. It imprisoned women for breaking its sexual codes and brutalised children left in its care. Then the true depth of corruption was exposed when widespread rape and sexual brutality were shown to be commonplace.
A new dimension of depravity was revealed when it emerged that the church authorities had colluded in the rapes by hiding the rapists and moving them from post to post where they could commit further crimes. The Vatican has been deeply involved, with allegations of cover-up directed at the present pope.
The cover-up has continued to the present day. The recent Murphy report into the Irish scandal showed a majority of the current hierarchy were involved. They tried to deny their role. A new entity, the Church in Ireland, was invented to try to disguise the role of the Vatican. The Vatican itself refused to answer questions, going as far as to invoke diplomatic immunity.
Now the scandal has reached the top of the local church with the involvement of Cardinal Sean Brady.
The facts are uncontested. In the 1970s Brady attended a meeting where two boys gave evidence against the notorious paedophile Fr Brendan Smith. The boys were forced to sign an oath of secrecy and Smith went on to blight other lives across Ireland and later in the USA.
Now Brady intends to tough it out, resisting calls from victims for his resignation. The outcome will not shake the arrogance of the church – Cardinal Law in Boston only resigned in similar circumstances when priests openly joined the protests. He then went to Rome where he was elevated in the Church hierarchy
How can this be? Clearly the scandals damage the church and their support amongst the working class is plummeting. Why does this not lead to their collapse? The answer is that a loss of support at the bottom was compensated for by increased support at the top of capitalist society and from state institutions. A very basic example of this support was the compensation payments to victims. They might have bankrupted the church, but the Irish state stepped in and picked up the tab.
Today victims call for honesty and accountability and the arrogant prelates of the church with their background as feudal princes, accuse them of seeking vengeance and yet again demand that the interests of the church be put before those of the victims. In the background, outside the circle of debate, state forces in both the North and the South act to strengthen state power.
So the Irish government announce, a week before the Brady revelations, that the church, controlling 92% of primary schools, is out of line with the growing diversity of religious belief and the even faster growing rejection of clerical control in many communities. Its proposal is for a reduction to 60 to 80% representation, depending on the area. Its mechanism for change? It is asking the bishops to consider the matter! In a significant statement on the issue of patronage, the Minister for Education, Batt O’Keeffe, said it would be up to the church itself to identify the particular schools in these areas that should close.
The new sectarian structures being built in the North represent a more blatant strengthening of church power. A new body, the Northern Ireland Commission for Catholic Education, is about to release plans for closures and amalgamations across the secondary sector. The purpose of the plan is crystal clear because it mirrors an earlier strategy applied to the primary sector. The church wants to ensure Catholic control for decades to come. The interests of children, parents and teachers will count as nothing. Because a more general planning process is under way based on a mix of schools in particular areas, the church decisions will impact on the education of children outside the catholic sector.
What is most notable about the above process is that the Catholic commission is simply an ad-hoc collection of the bishops and their cronies. The current maintained schools committee, given legal control by the British, is ignored, as is the framework of the Education and Skills Authority, in the process of establishing overall control. Essentially the church acts as if it can do as it pleases and the state acts as if it were correct in that assumption.
The church is sponsored by the state because it truly is the opium of the people, deadening dissent and preaching submission. Today it plays an invaluable role in house-training republicanism to accept a subordinate position in the new dispensation and Sean Brady has played a central role. Capitalism will not throw away such a valuable weapon.
Many activists with a one-dimensional view of society believe that difficult problems will fade away. Loyalist gangs, Orangeism, Church power - all will fade away. The story of the church, mired in scandal yet retaining power over children, refutes that notion.
Workers have to actively fight for change. They have to oppose the church and its history of gross oppression, now finally being unveiled. They have to oppose the capitalist state that sponsors it and they need a party that will support a secular socialist society and freedom from theocratic rule.
Comment by sandy — 19 March, 2010 @ 11:42 am
It’s a bit OT but welcome news in the fight against Islamophobia. Over 70 coaches of demonstrators are travelling from all over the UK to Bolton on Saturday to protest against the EDL.
All Bolton taxi drivers are going on strike on Saturday and joining the anti-nazi demo. Also the demo organisers have arranged a safe area with the police away from the main protest for those who need to use it. The organisers are saying bring a packed lunch and a deck chair (lol) as it might be a long day.
Comment by Ray — 19 March, 2010 @ 12:55 pm
PS if anyone wants to go on the demo check out the UAF website for coach details.
Comment by Ray — 19 March, 2010 @ 12:56 pm