WOOTON BASSETT - THE LAST THING WE NEED
From the BBC. As an anti-war activist living just 5 minutes from Wootton bassett, I can say that this march - if it goes ahead - would be disastrous for the movement, and disastrous for community relations in Swindon (which is only a 5 miles from Bassett)
Islamic group plans Wootton march |
|||
An Islamic group said to have links to an extremist movement is planning to march through the Wiltshire town of Wootton Bassett. The town has become famous for honouring British war dead returning from Afghanistan. Islam4UK pledged the protest would be peaceful with symbolic coffins representing Muslim victims. Wootton’s former mayor Chris Wannell has called on the group’s leader not to hold the march. ‘Brutal crusade’ North Wiltshire MP James Gray said: “I’ve seen in the past assorted groups threaten to march, but they don’t actually do it. “I wouldn’t think they’d get permission from the police.” Islam4UK is said to call itself a “platform” for the extremist movement al-Muhajiroun. Leader of Islam4UK, former lawyer Anjem Choudary, said the march would not coincide with a repatriation ceremony.
On its website the group said it was “totally unacceptable” to honour servicemen who had contributed “directly or indirectly” to the deaths of “well over 100,000 Muslims in Afghanistan in the last 8 years”. “We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March’ to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade,” the website states. Mr Wannell said the townsfolk did not come out to honour the soldiers “for any political reason at all” but to pay their respects to “those who have given their lives for our freedom”. Wootton councillor, Jenny Stratton, said: “Everyone has the right to protest, but it’s not a very tactful place to do it.” A spokeswoman for Wiltshire Police said: “Under the Public Order Act the organiser must inform the police of the date, time and route of the proposed procession, and the name and address of the organiser. “If the march or procession is believed to be likely to result in serious disorder, disruption or damage, then the police can impose conditions upon the organiser. “In exceptional circumstances, police may apply to the local authority for an order prohibiting such a march.” To date there had been no contact from Islam4UK or any other group wishing to arrange such a march in Wootton Bassett,” the spokeswoman added. |
|||
Everyone has the right to protest, but it’s not a very tactful place to do it 
Hoist with your own petard!
Comment by Frank — 3 January, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
I think there should be an understanding to the symbolic march even though
I feel the place is not really where it should be passing
The people of the town are not responsible for the deaths of innocent people
in war torn countries so it should be directed to those who are responsible
perhaps outside Blair’s home or anyone who was involved with the wars
But i do feel we as a country should recognise that the innocent people
maimed and murdered should be thought about
I remember an old film about a trial of a black man who killed because his
daughter was raped and beaten and when the lawyer summed up he said
think about what happened and imagine the child was white
so I feel we should think about the people who are dead and perhaps don’t
look at the colour race or religion of the dead just look at them as innocent victims
–
Comment by Anonymous — 3 January, 2010 @ 3:31 pm
This is a diversive and misjudged political act. If the organisers want to help stop this war then they should join stop the war and assist gathering public support for its campaigns. All they are doing is helping the racist and right wing bigots who will make propaganda over this. It will only help divert the opposition to the war especially at the time of an election. Think again!
Comment by Alfie — 3 January, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
its not misjudged at all they know exactly what they are doing. these scum are all about maximum social strife and creating tensions and this march (which they will never proceed with, and just feed off the media storm) will succeed in that regard so long as mugs fall for their trap by either: getting worked up by it; regarding it as in anyway legitimate; getting bogged down in the free speech debate.
lets call these scum out for what they are and leave it at that: lunatic hate filled scum.
the idea that they should be allowed into STWC would be funny if it wasn’t for the fact that they would quite possible be allowed.
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
“This is a diversive and misjudged political act.”
It is highly divisive and provocative but that’s the point if it. They’re not the slightest bit interested in unity against the war.
It’s the remnants of al-Muhajiroun and the same group that invaded Galloway’s meeting at the general election and held the Luton demo against the troops which sparked the EDL into life.
I suspect it’s just a grab for publicity and will never happen.
Comment by Mike — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
If the organisers want to help stop this war then they should join stop the war and assist gathering public support for its campaigns.
I don’t think they are interested in helping stop the war at all. They are interested in provoking a backlash and confrontation.
Comment by Duncan — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:15 pm
“…[what] they are doing is helping the racist and right wing bigots”.
Did it ever occur to you that the ARE the bigots?
Comment by Chris Harrison — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:25 pm
Yes there ARE bigots and i hope all well put a stop to this but i think it will not take place
Comment by steelcityred — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
As Socialists we should be opposed to the antics of Islam4uk.
This ’stunt’, if it happens, sums them up for what they are.
Comment by Ian — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
Anyone got any idea what Islam4UK amounts to? My impression is that they are about a dozen or so rather unhinged individuals with a website. Just ignore ‘em.
Comment by Francis King — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:45 pm
Of course if Al Muhjahiroun try to protest, you can bet the EDL will turn up to counter demo them, and UAF will turn up to counter the EDL.
All of which looks very messy, and is a deliberate strategy by the few dozen Islam4UK members to punch many many times above their weight on the media stakes.
Comment by AndyB — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:51 pm
You seem to want to silence the legimate protests of the Muslim community.
Why are you an Islamophobe? Why do you hate Muslims?
Comment by Anonymous — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:03 pm
i would hope any serious anti-fascist group to oppose both Islam4UK and EDL in such circumstances.
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:03 pm
Yes, it would be very bad news both for the anti-war movement locally and for anti-racists campaigning to undermine Islamophobia. It will give the BNP a propaganda coup and encourage the EDL’s racist thugs. The supporters of this group have never had any interest in participating in a broad, united anti-war movement. Sections of the media will no doubt use this to try to damage the movement, anti-racists and the Muslim community. We’ll need to do our best to counter their lies and distortions.
Comment by Alex Snowdon — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:04 pm
The key thing is until they contact the authorities (ie: the police and the LA) this is all wind.
They will most probably NOT be allowed to march if they do apply, and as has been hinted already, they know it.
Let’s hope that their pronouncement is just posturing.
Comment by Halshall — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:07 pm
It’s Anjem Choudary , he wants you to jump up and down and unleash the language of hate.
He and his followers have a symbiotic relationship with the deranged Islamophobes, each needs the other to give a narrative to their own particular preaching of intolerance.
Comment by Eddie Truman — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:21 pm
ou seem to want to silence the legimate protests of the Muslim community.
Why are you an Islamophobe? Why do you hate Muslims?
and in luton the Muslims commommunity kick these bigots of the stds
Comment by steelcityred — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:28 pm
Steelcityred: who are you directing that to?
how can it be the legitimate protests of the “muslim community” if the “muslim community” is kicking them off the streets?
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:31 pm
You’re calling this Islam4UK group bigots just because they’re Muslims who won’t join your political organisation. You think all Muslims are bigots. You are an Islamophobe and I claim my £5
Comment by Anonymous — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:45 pm
As there is no evidence whatsover that this march is actually going to happen and no request has been made isnt the amount of attention being paid to it just a little suspect?
How to increase islamophobia in one easy go and give the Daily Mail a few easy headlines..
Comment by Graham — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:50 pm
suspect in what way Graham? suspect of whom?
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 5:58 pm
“7.“…[what] they are doing is helping the racist and right wing bigots”.
Did it ever occur to you that the ARE the bigots?
Comment by Chris Harrison — 3 January, 2010 @ 4:25 pm”
Can somebody explain this to me please? I’m not necessarily disputing it, but in what way exactly can these people be described as bigots?
Comment by S.I.G. — 3 January, 2010 @ 6:03 pm
go and do some reading on Al-Muhajiroun, Anjem Choudary etc.
this is a quote from the latter:
“At the end of the day, when we say innocent people we mean Muslims. As far as non-Muslims are concerned, they have not accepted Islam. As far as we are concerned, that is a crime against God”.
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 6:17 pm
Re 21
Why all the attention being paid to something that isnt going to happen, no request has been made, all the attention being paid to this will simply have the effect of increasing Islamophobia, the mainstream attention paid to this non existent event is simply a gift to the likes of the bnp
Comment by Graham — 3 January, 2010 @ 6:49 pm
I remember campaigning in 2002-3 during the build-up to the invasion of Iraq in Longsight, an area of Manchester with a high Muslim population, and these characters putting up stickers and running stalls telling Muslims not to get involved involved in broad action against the war, and only to oppose it on the basis of Islam. I suspect these may be the same people (and would therefore not be interested in joining STW).
Hopefully this march will not happen, for the reasons expressed above, but it is nevertheless important that broad anti-war protests fully address the question of the Afghan (and Iraqi) victims, as well as linking in with popular anti-war sentiment fuelled by the deaths of service personnel. Just before Christmas STW in Manchester held a vigil (see previous post) where members of the public were invited to write the names of British soldiers and Afghan victime on a “naming of the dead” board.
Comment by Armchair — 3 January, 2010 @ 6:59 pm
24: lots of unofficial protests generate huge press coverage/hysteria before occurring, eg G20 protests last April. according to Islam4UK this event will happen - for the police, the media and the Left the small detail of it being unlikely to actually transpire is doesn’t fully close the door to its relevance and the questions it poses.
and its hardly a surprise that it will generate all manner of heated discussion - thats the point of it. same with the consequences of this that you set out (”increasing Islamophobia, the mainstream attention paid to this non existent event is simply a gift to the likes of the bnp”) - thats the point. these nuts want to draw harsh dividing lines and split society in exactly in this way, thinking that it will help their movement on the scale that matters to them - globally. BNP success and the UK going down that avenue is great propaganda for them.
Comment by alibi — 3 January, 2010 @ 7:19 pm
This announcement is an indictment of the left and the antiwar movement. The lack of strong resistance to the govt’s pro-war propaganda, with the troops, and the returning dead troops, central in that, has left a vacuum which will inevitably be filled by radical Islamist groups such as this one. The idea of a demonctration to commemorate the forgotten dead among the Afghans is a good one in itself. It would have been much better if it were united with a commemoration of the dead British troops as well, thereby cutting across the nationalist idea that British lives are of more value than Afghan.
Wooton Basseet as a location is obviously provocative, but despite what the locals say it has become a focal point for prowar sentiment inasmuch as the govt has succeeded in equating the fallen troops with the need to continue the war and finish the job in order to honour their sacrifice.
These prowar nostrums have not been challenged with sufficient vigour, with the result that a protest such as this by an organisation such as this will play into the hands of the far right.
Comment by John — 3 January, 2010 @ 8:23 pm
It is a good idea to remember the civilian dead of these British wars but I don’t think that holding such a demo in Bassett.
Comment by W.O. Goodman — 3 January, 2010 @ 8:43 pm
Ignore #28 - It is a good idea to remember the civilian dead of these British wars but I don’t think that holding such a demo in Bassett is a good idea.
Comment by W.O. Goodman — 3 January, 2010 @ 8:44 pm
It’s rare that the ‘Left’ - both right and left - is united in its condemnation of those seeking to expose the military arm of the state.
I think any Left with an ounce of independent thinking will think, if all these characters above are agreeing there is something wrong.
For there is. The proposed march is an inspired tactic and any anti-imperialist should give it support.
Who are these soldiers deified on their last journey through the Wiltshire countryside? They are not the heroes of media coverage but volunteer killers who take the Queen’s shilling to either kill or support the killing and the imperialist occupation.
Personally, if the enemy buried their dead without seeking to make propaganda from them, I’d leave them to get on with it in silence. But when lie after lie is told about them, when not a moment of coverage of the far more numerous funerals of men, women and children slain by the occupiers of Afghanistan (and the, as yet, only airborne) invaders of Pakistan is shown, and when the state is clearly (but still in the infancy) of trying to recreate the Victorian military culture of yore - then Reds should take a stand – against the militarists not against the anti-militarists!
And as ‘for don’t march, it will only attract the EDL’ bollocks then maybe you think Muslim organisations should permanently be banned from doing so, thus preventing numerous possible EDL counter marches. Maybe the Left should also be permanently banned from marching, for the same reasons?
It’s just completely shameful that this anti-militarist stand is left to reactionaries like this bunch of Islamists but fair play to them for being brave enough and any decent Left will support them, if they go ahead, in the pre-emptive arrests they will suffer to disrupt the event, the repressive actions that would take place against them on the day and the lynching (verbal, legal or possibly actual) that would take place in Wootton Basset, and, by the looks of it, with Her Majesty’s Loyal Socialists here gathered to cheer on the forces of law or order.
Comment by Southpawpunch — 3 January, 2010 @ 9:56 pm
Even for those of us who are not great admirers of the British Army this is a barmy stunt. You only do things like this when you want to cheese people off and harden your own tiny group of adherents into believing that the whole world is against them.
Comment by Liam — 3 January, 2010 @ 11:23 pm
Which is kind of the point. Anjem Choudary and his mates are the Muslim equivalent of the Spartacist League, without the charm and good manners. And rather a lot of them are state assets.
Comment by Splintered Sunrise — 3 January, 2010 @ 11:50 pm
Id say they were more the INLA of the anti-war movement; wrongly decried as ‘fascists’ by those who compromise on a key principle of anti-imperialism - unremitting opposition to the armed forces.
The Islamists, despite major flaws elsewhere have the guts to say what’s what, whilst their critics do no more than repeat - “And the wee men - gombeens of infantile disorder,
Wearing read sack and ashes around their arses
To hide the blueshirts near their breasts”
Comment by Southpawpunch — 4 January, 2010 @ 12:15 am
The Al-Muhijiroun group certainly contained state infiltrators (Hassan Butt from Manchester being the most prevalent)
The excellent writer Nafeez Ahmed has speculated that Pakistani intelligence has made itself quite a lot of money in recent years entrapping naive and stupid British Islamists in hair brined schemes. it would not be a surprise if Islam4UK is similarly compromised……….
Comment by Paul Stott — 4 January, 2010 @ 9:38 am
As somebody said above, the flacid and moribund anti-war movement’s lack of courage and will to tell the truth about `allied’ troop activity in Afghanistan and Iraq is opening the door to the fundies. A procession through Wooton Bassett of coffins representing the civilian victims of these wars is an excellent idea and anti-dote if its purpose was to recruite to an anti-war, anti-imperialist position rather than the `let’s start a futile bloody local war so that I can gain some personal political power in a small besieged community and parade my fat ego in your face’ position of the middle class fundamentalists and their dupes.
The anti-war movement should be as active and audacious in its opposition to the war in Afghanistan as say Viva Palestina is in its opposition to Israel and those who wish to represent Muslim communities must be determined to help defend and mobilise those communities against the pogromists of the EDL or see their influence slip away to those who say bring on the pogroms as that will drive everybody into the arms of `radical Islam’ and shore up the influence, power and control over ordinary Muslim workers and families of the would be cleric-politicians.
Comment by Paul Geech — 4 January, 2010 @ 1:15 pm
DELETED
Comment by Tony — 4 January, 2010 @ 1:55 pm
Tony and Choudry need each other. I suggest they both fuck off to Saudi Arabia where they can practise sharia and British values at the same time and hopefully get their necks shortened. I think we’d all chip in for that. Chislers both.
Comment by In the name of God and Allah Go — 4 January, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
The left need to make a stand here or face been marginalised by a what are a handfull of fanatics, who have totally misread Islam (as some do Marx)
We need to say no to the march as we do with EDL when they try to march in our inner Cities
Having said that while Nick Griffin was condemed for attending one repatriation, the “Community” or the British legion should have condemed his attendance more (While noteing the British legion have already done much to distance themselves from the BNP)
Now is time for leadership on the Left
This stunt is not wanted by the Community, brtish legion or as far as Iam aware the trade union or Labour Movement in Wiltshire
Comment by Sean — 4 January, 2010 @ 5:51 pm
What is the attitude of the Stop the War Coalition on this issue?
Comment by Henry — 4 January, 2010 @ 8:33 pm
I don’t know what the attitude of Stop the War is, but it should be a source of shame that due to their inability to offer a strong enough resistance to the govt and the media prowar propaganda, it takes a radical Islamist organisation to organise what is objectively an exemplary event to cut across the notion that British lives are of more worth and value than the true victims of this war, the Afghan population.
Now, alas, it will only play into the hands of the far right. Again, the left must take some responsibility for this.
Comment by John — 4 January, 2010 @ 9:05 pm
“exemplary”
comrade these people would shoot you
and shoot any women attending school or Gay
Get real these are extremists
and have nothing to do with anti war, or freedom of speech
This is a publicity stunt that will never happen
hope they enjoyed their 5 mins of fame
shame its put back the anti war movement that will be the loser and no doubt good community relations in Wiltshire
Comment by Sean — 5 January, 2010 @ 1:08 am
Did anyone see ITN last night?
Comment by Armchair — 5 January, 2010 @ 7:20 am
@41
well put
@19
no we do not ,but this tiny group of finatics are doing a lot of damage.
Bigots or just that and Southpawpunch i didn,nt where you lean your kind of socialism by be reading to many books and not having too many friends in the real world.
Comment by steelcityred — 5 January, 2010 @ 7:37 am
#41
You obviously didn’t read what I wrote. The action in itself is exemplary - i.e. a parade commemorating the Afghan civilians who’ve been killed as a result of the occupation - but the organisation which has initiated the idea will turn it into a godsend for the far right.
Comment by John — 5 January, 2010 @ 7:37 am
no
Comment by steelcityred — 5 January, 2010 @ 7:37 am
The print edition of the Guardian carries a comment from Salma. Unfortunately, it is a very poorly edited version of a longer article. For the original, see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/05/wootton-bassett-salma-yaqoob
Comment by ger francis — 5 January, 2010 @ 8:15 am
JOhn
Wottoon Bassett is not the place for such a march.
That si a different issue from whether the anti-war movement has dropped the ball over raising the issue of the Afghan war dead, where you do have a good point.
Comment by Andy Newman — 5 January, 2010 @ 9:00 am
I disagree with you Andy. Wootton Bassett has become synonymous with the govt’s prowar propaganda whether we like it or not. And it is here where such a march would garner media attention. Trying to avoid controversy for fear of offending people is a mistake. If the action is right then people should have no fear of offending, esp if it is going to point out the fact that in this horrible little colonial war Afghan life is deemed of lesser value than British.
Comment by John — 5 January, 2010 @ 9:06 am
Calm down! What the Right wants is a media circus round this and the best thing we can do is to ignore it. Exactly who is chasing any of us down the street asking for our opinion? Why should StW comment on it? It has nothing to do with StW. The anti-war left isn’t accountable for every two bit, tiny organisation that is against the war. Fortunately most people in this country are against the war and are unlikedly to equate their own sentiments or ours with a miniscule jihadist group intent on creating controversy.
Comment by Ray — 5 January, 2010 @ 9:13 am
Trying to avoid controversy for fear of offending people is a mistake.
- The real controversy is that the British government isn’t interested in the majority decision of the British public who want no part in the on-going military campaign in Afghanistan.
The only people who’ll be offended if there is NOT a march in Wooton Bassett against British government involvement in Afghanistan are a tiny group of offensive nobodies who have the gall to use ‘Islam’ in the title of their crummy little organisation.
Comment by joe90 kane — 5 January, 2010 @ 9:44 am
#50
Joe, careful you don’t lapse into the realm of separating the Muslim community into good, acceptable Muslims and bad, unacceptable ones.
The reason for the rise of groups such as the one advocating this action is precisely because we, the left, have failed to offer sufficient resistance to the war in this country and the received truths which have formed its intellectual and political justification.
These people are NOT nobodies. If they were they wouldn’t be all over the news, would they? The idea of such a march is inspired, though I would prefer one which combines the symbolic coffins of both the British and Afghan lives lost.
Sadly, over the past 9 years, many Muslims have become radicalised in the wrong way over this issue. The outstanding efforts of people like Galloway and Salma and Respect nothwithstanding, the simple fact is that the left in its entirety has failed in its responsibility to cut across the false divisions of patriotism and nationalism used by the govt to justify the war. The vacuum left as a consequence will inevitably be filled. We have only ourselves to blame that it is being filled by radical Islamists and the far right.
Comment by John — 5 January, 2010 @ 10:32 am
oe, careful you don’t lapse into the realm of separating the Muslim community into good, acceptable Muslims and bad, unacceptable ones.
- I’ll leave lumping all Muslims together as an undifferentiated collective, as the Nazis did with Jews, to the likes of you.
The vacuum left as a consequence will inevitably be filled. We have only ourselves to blame that it is being filled by radical Islamists and the far right.
- Blame yourself if you like. I couldn’t care less, but you don’t speak for me in exactly the same way these other non-enitities don’t speak for or represent ‘Islam’.
There is no vacuum but if anonymous nobodies like you think there is, please feel free to fill it with your empty rhetoric.
The only radicals in the UK are the British government and British corporate journalists who, despite the majority wishes of the British public, continue to support and involve us all in a military campaign in Afghanistan.
Comment by joe90 kane — 5 January, 2010 @ 10:42 am
Joe, do you really think that you’re fooling anybody with this faux outrage at having your smug assertions challenged?
You can join in with those British journalists in shrieking in horror at the temerity of a few ‘jumped up natives’ daring to forget their place if you want, but myself and others I suspect feel an obligation to understand why such groups have emerged and where the left has failed. Of course, I am assuming that you are on the left. After all, one never knows.
Less reactionary posturing and more analysis would do you no harm.
As for me being an ‘anonymous nobody’, well that’s a bit rich from somebody posting under a psuedonym.
Comment by John — 5 January, 2010 @ 10:49 am
Joe, do you really think that you’re fooling anybody with this faux outrage at having your smug assertions challenged?
- I’m not outraged (so much for your faux allegations) as you haven’t challenged anything worth defending.
Less reactionary posturing and more analysis would do you no harm.
- Pointing out the British government and corporate journalists aren’t representing the majority opinions of British people isn’t reactionary posturing (whatever that is anyway). It is stating facts.
As for me being an ‘anonymous nobody’, well that’s a bit rich from somebody posting under a psuedonym.
- But obviously you are anonymous - and a nobody, as nobody in the UK supports you or your Islam4uk pals - and anything you say is just empty posturing.
Comment by joe90 kane — 5 January, 2010 @ 11:13 am
hey you two, I know both of you share very similar views on this, so perhaps we need to concentrate on the common ground.
The task of the anti-war movement is to try to win over the middle ground towards demanding that the British givernment withdraws military forces from Afghanistan, and promotes a peace solition for that country.
The particular dynamic that has developed in Wootton Bassett is a delicate one, not actually pro-war and the locals are wary of politicisation, and an ill judged intervention could push the middle ground away from us and towards the supporting the government’s view.
But John is correct that the anti-war moovememnt has failed to get to grips with Afghanistan, and we need to rasie our game, whicle his tactical judgement over Wootton basett is a bit misplaced.
Comment by Andy Newman — 5 January, 2010 @ 11:19 am
John, you’re badly mistaken when you say that the existence of this group is an indictment of the left.
Groups like this have got smaller because of the anti-war movement. In 2002, they acted as “stewards” on the big 28th September march - unofficially and against the wishes of the organisers - and tried to disrupt it, including putting up banners in Hyde Park to stop people seeing the speakers.
Around east London, this sort of group put up stickers saying “DON’T STOP THE WAR - except through Islamic politics”. I remember being in the main shopping area of East Ham and seeing stickers over every lamp post.
In 2005, they were able to make enough of a splash in Bethnal Green, leafleting against Galloway.
But even by 2005, these groups were close to non-existent.
Now, what do we have? A few dozen of them who see their main job as whipping up the divisions and making sure the left doesn’t support them.
The only thing that’s changed is that the media now finds them much more useful, so they have a much higher profile. They’re not attracting members, they’re not growing, they have almost no influence.
All we’re seeing is the media using such groups as part of their attempts to increase racism.
Your starting position is really, really mistaken. It is the existence of the left and the anti-war movement that has meant these groups having close to zero influence among Muslims or elsewhere. They’re reduced to stunts and nothing else.
You need to rethink your “blame the left” attitude: The left could do much better, and the anti-war movement could certainly do better. But you’re confusing media exposure (which is in itself a hugely ideological issue) with size and influence.
Comment by tony collins — 5 January, 2010 @ 12:28 pm
John is completely correct in his comments.
In the Vietnam War, anti-war protestors would directly confront the US military; they would attempt to disrupt their parades and they would also focus on the Vietnamese dead - with photos of the slaughtered and more - and, of course, with some Vietnam vets marching alongside them (and US troops in Vietnam were overwhelmingly conscripts, as opposed to our volunteer killers in Afghanistan).
And they did all that in the USA, where the level of national chauvinism is measurably higher than in Britain. Well done our American forebears; it’s just such a shame that 40 years down the line many British Lefts can not see how craven and patriotic is their response in not just ignoring but actually castigating anti-imperialists.
I don’t give a fig about Woolly Basset. It’s a one horse town in the middle of Wiltshire; a centre of the British Army. Sure it’s good to have an antiwar movement anywhere, but no communist would let the local sensibilities of a minor provincial place, which will now often be infused with jingoism, have any impact on a national anti-war strategy. Think big picture.
We need to focus on the Afghan (and Pakistani) dead and injured. We need to tell the real story about the occupation that the capitalist media will never tell. We need to confront ‘our’ armed forces and not let them spread their propaganda unheeded.
That’s why such a march in Wootton Basset would be good. How much coverage do you think such a march would get in Bradford or Bridlington?
I agree with Tony Collins that Islam4UK are a bad bunch. I saw the stickers in East Ham’; and in Ilford, where their leader lives, I imagine it was them who defaced Socialist Alliance posters with stickers saying something like ‘Don’t vote, it’s against Islam’.
But the whole attitude on display is some sort of envy that they actually have a bit of pzazz about them. (You don’t see any Left stickers in East Ham or Ilford nowadays).
It’s just such a damn shame that reactionaries like Islam4UK are the only ones with the guts and foresight to campaign dramatically against imperialism - as opposed to going for a stroll round Westminster, on a STW demo.
But that is the fault of the Left, not Islam4UK and the long retreat of the former into respectability. I have spent extensive time castigating even so called ‘revolutionaries’ who run a million miles from any support from today’s anti-imperialists but whose own political parties did offer such to the IRA, back in the day.
And the question also remains what will be the attitude of Lefts to any march by the Islamists (unlikely to happen, I agree). Yesterday the Home Secretary brushed aside any impression of even paying lip service to the law, in saying he would automatically ban the march if the local authority requested such, rather than evaluate it and then decide. Of course the local authority will request such, regardless of the facts of the matter.
What is your attitude? A pompous agreement with our political masters and another nail in the coffin of people’s ability to do what you think. Or a principled defence of the Islamists to march and an agreement with then that it is correct to highlight the murderous role of the armed forces?
Comment by Southpawpunch — 5 January, 2010 @ 12:38 pm
Tony
I think that the truth lies somewhere in between.
You are correct that the STWC marginalised the Jihadis, and that they have very limited support.
However, the peace movement has been a bit disoriented over Afghanistan compared to our relatively successful efforts at shifting the public debate over Iraq.
I doon’t particularly have an answer to that, buut it is something that needs to be addressed
Comment by Andy Newman — 5 January, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
#57 In the Vietnam War, anti-war protestors would directly confront the US military; they would attempt to disrupt their parades What’s the source for this? I’ve read quite a few histories of the anti-war movement, and I don’t remember military parades being a major target. The anti-war movement targeted draft induction centres, and officer training on college campuses, but equally put a lot of time into running coffee-houses near bases to get to speak to disaffected soldiers. I can’t see that disrupting military parades would have helped that particularly.
Comment by chjh — 5 January, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
Southpawpunch, you’re not just saying f**k off to the people of Wooton Basset (a town who’s significance is it’s proximity to the local RAF base, not necessarally as a military town, and many of who’s population have ambivalent attitudes to the coffin parades), to the majority of the left (how’s it going with the Real Socialist Unity blog btw?), but to the overwhelming majority of Muslims in this country who will suffer the backlash from this - not even from the march which may or may not go ahead, but from the hype already surrounding it.
Comment by Armchair — 5 January, 2010 @ 1:16 pm
chjh,
I have read of such in the US, but can’t quickly get a reference from a quick Googling (but did get below, from NZ and I know similar happened in US, I think that American rightwing ‘humorist’& former Left O’Rourke? wrote about doing such).
But that is just one tactic; others as mention would be good, but only if relevant to volunteers,
“When Auckland organised a civic reception on 12 May 1971 to mark the return of 161 Battery RNZA and 4 Troop NZSAS from their deployment in South Vietnam, anti-war protesters staged a demonstration to coincide with the event.
The civic parade was led by the Band of the Royal New Zealand Artillery followed by a double column of Land Rovers carrying the gunners of 161 Battery, and troopers from the NZSAS. The march was relatively uneventful until the column reached the reviewing platform outside the Auckland Town Hall.
As the parade approached the reviewing platform red paint bombs and fire crackers were thrown on the road. The demonstrators used red paint to symbolise the bloodshed in Vietnam. Several paint-covered protesters then broke free from the crowd and sat on the road in an attempt to block the parade route. Despite forcing the band to alter course the protesters only caused a momentary disruption to the parade before they were removed by police.”
http://www.vietnamwar.govt.nz/memory/john-miller-slide-show
In the article’s photo, look at the brave (students?) stood outside Auckland Town Hall waiting for a military parade in 1971 carrying a banner saying ‘New Zealand Troops - Murder In Our Name’
And then look at the Armchair British Loyal Left in 2010. And laugh. Maybe I was born too late.
Comment by Southpawpunch — 5 January, 2010 @ 1:29 pm
Southpawpunch- if you wanted to emulate the NZ activists to whom you refer, I’m sure you could find a few takers.
The purpose of doing so would be what exactly?
Comment by Armchair — 5 January, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
The Facebook group ‘NO TO THE PLANNED ISLAM4UK MARCH THROUGH WOOTTON BASSETT’ is administered by known BNP activists. The group has grown to several hundred thousand members in a few days. They have been deleting every anti-BNP and leaving Islamophobic and pro-BNP comments up there. The group address is http://www.facebook.com/tedsplitter?cropsuccess#/group.php?gid=228021139869
I suggest comrades join the group and argue for sanity. If enough people are commenting they can’t stop us!
Comment by Ted — 5 January, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
I have read through everyones comments on this & i would like to just add my own basic views. I was on the origional Anti war marches but dont have any political affiliation (I say this because i think it is relivent).
I just dont condone people being sent to their death needlessly (On either side).
I personally find the march on wooten Basset horrible for the simple fact that the processions are a mark of respect for soldiers who are doing what they are told with a sence of duty that some people dont understand. Most of these soldiers did not start the war or i guess even want it. but they are dead all the same & they need to be given back to their families so they can grieve, a horrible grief that i hope never have to go through.
People do understand there are deaths of innocents in places like Afganistan & Iraq. I know i do, but going to a town & protesting against people who are just showing respect to a person who is dead just does’nt make sence to me (Or maybe i refuse to become as jaded as some people).
And to a lot of people that is just what it boils down to, some people who live in a small town paying their respects to someone who is dead. Whenever i see a funeral procession i always stop & show some signs of respect, i personally dont care what colour that person was or how they died. but i still show respect, i’m not an old timer i’ve survived this world for 32 years. But i believe respect is important.
If this march was to go on, no matter which group was behind it, it would cause people like me to walk away from that cause. I know this comment is’nt as well read as most on here but i believe it to be the solid truth. Like the guys have said before it probably wont, but still people should have a voice as to what they believe in their hearts.
The unfortunate soldiers who are led through Wooten basset, are the dead, the war is over for them. i do believe the innocent dead from the collective countries should also be remembered too, of course they should.
But going to that small town & doing it that way would cause so much seperation, distrust And i believe even hatred.
And i think we’ve had enough of that already.
I guess now people on here will edit/quote & pull this comment apart, do as you will.
But this is just a very ordinary blokes comment in a very insane time.
Comment by Gav — 6 January, 2010 @ 1:53 pm
More than meets the eye……http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=234640234510
Comment by Enlighten Me — 7 January, 2010 @ 7:01 pm
Like all the marches to Westminster before the Iraq war started achieved anything.
Comment by huw williams — 14 January, 2010 @ 11:30 am
it is very nice
Comment by metin2 forum — 19 April, 2010 @ 6:36 am