SOCIALIST UNITY

19 December, 2009

KEN LIVINGSTONE ON THE CRISIS OF THE LEFT

Filed under: Ken Livingstone — Andy Newman @ 1:00 pm

From the Good Society debate

21 Comments »

green and grassroots democratic, has this man being talking to Hugo Chavez…sounds like 21st century socialism.

Comment by Derek Wall — 19 December, 2009 @ 1:30 pm
This doesn’t sound like anything socialist. This is simply reformist horseshit, having a moan at his own failures when in leadership as part of a labour party that is now about as useful to the working class today as a comb for a bald man.

Talk about the horse has bolted Alan. And you could probably answer the first question with a pinpoint on the moment Militant was kicked out! If only Ken and others had listened then…

Comment by ? — 19 December, 2009 @ 2:17 pm
The ultra left are very hostile to ecology and participation, tragic.

Comment by Derek Wall — 19 December, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Ken Livingstone is a has been Labour lackey..yaaaaaaawn!

Please let´s hear more about Skidmarx sounds mmuch more interesting and fascinating than listening to not so red Ken droning on.

If he decided to leave jump the seriously stinking sinking New Labour ship along with the rest of the ever pathetic flapping and floundering Labour Left then he and they might possiblity be able to regain some form of credibility but then is that really really likely to happen…….turkeys dont vote for Chritmas as they say……poor bastards !!!

Comment by Fleabite — 19 December, 2009 @ 5:51 pm
I can’t believe you people look up to someone like Ken. Lets build a mega mosque, yeah!
http://www.londonpatriot.org/2009/08/24/the-truth-about-radical-islamic-sharia-courts-in-britain-found-on-russian-tv/
“sharia parallel to British law since 1992″

Comment by Anonymous — 19 December, 2009 @ 6:23 pm
So, Mayor Livingstone thinks the Democratic Party in my country are part of “the left”?

The Democrats are one of America’s two capitalist political parties (the other one, of course, is the Republican Party) and, until the 1960’s, the Democratic Party had very close ties with the Ku Klux Klan.

How “left” do they sound now?

By the way, New York City’s billionaire scumbag mayor, Mike Bloomberg, wanted to impose a tax on motorists who drove into Manhattan - and he borrowed that rotten anti working class regressive tax idea from - Mayor Livingstone - who imposed that tax on folks driving into London!

Comment by Gregory A. Butler — 19 December, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
Newman, you sound and behave like a petulant two year old; with the intellectual level of your political philosophy at about the same level.

Your the most obnoxious, egotistical, self serving and self obsessed blogger on the ‘left.’ What limited success your riduculous site enjoys in the way of hits is due entirely to the justified anger your pathetic bleatings elicit in anyone with an ounce of humanity.

Please fuck off back to the corrupt little bureaucracy you emerged from and leave the internet for grown ups.

Comment by Lauren Alder — 19 December, 2009 @ 7:57 pm
Well Lauren Alder, that was a very mature contribution. I am impressed.
If only all contributions were of this standard we would have seen the revolution years ago.
And I am not a member of the Labour Party or a union bureaucrat, never met or know Andy Newman but do get a perverse pleasure in reading the debate that goes on in between the abuse that you and a few others seem to substitute for political comment.
Maybe I am just an old socialist painter and decorator looking for answers and this blog is one of several that offers varied left opinions.
Please feel free to insult me as well.

Comment by unionworker — 19 December, 2009 @ 8:34 pm
What is that from Skidmarx’s Mum at #7? More blogger-baiting from the illiterati? (It’s “you’re”, luv, not “your”.)

Comment by Capitalist Rhoda — 19 December, 2009 @ 8:41 pm
Fair comment from Ken - the first section says it all: “the left haven’t prepared an alternative… ” The temptation, to which many have succumbed: retreating into irrelevance, needs to be resisted.

And there’s no better way, at the moment, of maintaining relevance than with a focus on the key themes picked up by Derek Wall #3: participation and ecology.

Comment by Daveyboy — 19 December, 2009 @ 9:08 pm
“Your the most obnoxious, egotistical, self serving and self obsessed blogger on the ‘left.’”

You really do need to be the first four in order to be the fifth.

Comment by tony collins — 19 December, 2009 @ 9:22 pm
Plenty of things we can say about Ken both positive and negative but a good contribution in the vid above.

Likewise I have my moments of fairly sharp disagreement with Andy but lets focus on the political as well as the personal.

Comment by Derek Wall — 19 December, 2009 @ 11:16 pm
Hi

Shame about the majority of contributions. The questions that Ken raise are interesting though the answers as to why things have not gone well for the left seem pretty obvious to me.

He accurately points to the near universal acceptance of the neo liberal agenda in all main stream political parties for the last 30 years as a problem that has meant that the social democratic parties by and large have struggled with the economic recession as much as the rightwing parties.

The real question should be that when the whole neo liberal project has failed spectacularly why the left has not been able to take advantage of this.

I suspect the answer to this comes to reason why social democracy does not work in practice. It is obviously possible to tweak the system in a slightly more progressive direction when there are greater resources available but when they dry up you are challenged by the choice of changing the system or accomadating their demands. Unfortunately social democracy has an unblemished record of the latter whenever this question arises.

The hard choice that is ducked by social democracy is that the system has to be replaced. That it is obvious that this will be resisted by the ruling class is understood. It is a hard road but the only one I fear will succeed.

The parliamentary road to socialism has been tried many times and always failed.

We have to start somewhere so the best approach I believe is to do the tried and trusted work of organising in our communities and workplaces. It would be good if when we did this we were honest about what can be achieved through parliaments, elected offices, courts ect.

Thanks

Comment by Tom — 20 December, 2009 @ 2:51 am
Livingstone took on three questions.
“The Problem of the Left in Europe’ he explained by the necessity to jettison left aspirations (workers rights, support for the poor, environmentalism) in order for left parties to get elected.

Addressing the second question about the merits of a United States of Europe Livingstone’s flawed logic referred to the values Labour abandoned to get elected in 1997.

The talk radio jock ex London Mayor’s response to the third question – what is the good society – referred to a new book The Spirit Level (he couldn’t be assed to name the author). Why does Ken opportunistically pick on a new book no one has ever heard of to illustrate the good society if he is not an inveterate opportunist?

Comment by Hugh — 20 December, 2009 @ 3:11 am
I don’t think anyone on the left would object to an emphasis on participatory or green politics. The problem is how do we realise these ideals?

Ken never mentions class. Like any reformist he begins with the notion democracy is a great equalizer and if we can only win support for radical-sounding policies, we can change society. But power doesn’t rest in the polling stations. People’s opinions aren’t decided during election campaigns. Their world-view, and the strength of relations in society, are determined by the everyday class struggle.

If the ‘European left’ to which Livingstone is addressing his comments means the same old social democrats, we are screwed. The anti-capitalist left are the only ones able to provide an assertive, powerful alternative vision - we have to shape the way people think about the world, and how to transform it, through struggle.

Comment by Manzil — 20 December, 2009 @ 3:59 am
Hugh @ #13 “Why does Ken opportunistically pick on a new book no one has ever heard of… ”
I’ve heard of this book - though not read it - but it extends (it seems) research already carried out by others: the Black Report (1979, available on the Socialist Health Association website) which pointed to a correlation between inequality and ill-health. Considering the prominence of concerns about NHS,funding etc in real-world political discourse then the relevance of these publications should not be underestimated.

Sure, we have to (even opportunistically) use relevant arguments to change opinion and win support for socialist solutions. This is what political campaigning is all about. While some solutions may be dismissed as ‘reformist’ and probably lack the glory and heroism associated (by some) with ’struggle’ they are preferable to the alternative. And it should be noted, the alternative currently on offer is not a revolutionary socialist one.

Here’s the titles for those who may wish to take a break from dreaming of glory:

Inequalities in Health: The Black Report and the Health Divide (Penguin Social Sciences)

The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better

Both available from Amazon.

Comment by Daveyboy — 20 December, 2009 @ 8:07 am
It appears to me rebranding the old Labour Party to New Labour, was an attempt to invigorate the party with the view to shaking off its old cloth cap look and approach, for a modern younger and vibrant one, adaptable to the ever changing progressive market economy,yet retaining the traditional Labour values.

New Labour may have at its core tradional values, but as witnessed they have it seems, deliverd little to those most in need and kept them in a state of limbo from the ravages of the progressive market ecconomy.Socialism and Capitalism do not make good bed companions,but sadly like it or not our it is a bed that has to be shared.Yet untill the left is a united party with core values of caring for the majority who are at the bottom and mercy of market economies it will be a uncomfortable bed to share.

Comment by jim mc donald — 20 December, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
Livingstone is as much the enemy of the class as brown, cameron, clegg, lucas and griffin.

Comment by T. M. — 20 December, 2009 @ 11:03 pm
If it wasn’t so important to actually start the process of building an alternative left political vision, the knee jerk anti-Ken reactions from many on this thread would be funny. As it is they are pathetic - Derek is right.

Ken is not a revolutionary socialist. For some of you this is an unforgivable crime - how dare he offer political solutions to the left’s crisis whilst subscribing to a social democratic understanding of the world? How dare a member of the Green party? Whether they are right or not is for you secondary to whether they share your views on theoretical questions.

The reality is that in order to advance the left requires the broadest possible alliance of progressive social forces and political currents and should be working to foster unity amongst these. This unity is required at present not to inaugurate a period of world revolution but to halt the onslaught of imperialism in its agenda for permanent war and environmental destruction.

A basis for agreement will clearly not be on an adherence to Marxist doctrine. But as this is not the most decisive question in world politics at the moment, it is right that this is the case.

The left has so far proven itself on the whole of grasping this point and stepping up to the challenge. It is certainly not impossible - but the right approach is more likely to be held by left social democrats such as Ken Livingstone than it is by the ultra-left inhbaitants of cloud-cuckoo land that have dominated this thread.

Comment by The Friendly Lefty — 20 December, 2009 @ 11:19 pm
That sentence in the last paragraph shoud of course have read ‘The left has so far proven itself on the whole UNABLE of grasping this point and stepping up to the challenge.’

Wishful thinking on my part.

Comment by The Friendly Lefty — 21 December, 2009 @ 12:09 am
Marxist doctrine equals failed ideology. The partisans of this bankrupt ideology are currently being suborned by groups like the muslim brotherhood. Failed ideologues, careerist academics, pointless theoreticians, and fantasist revolutionaries, have nothing to do with the real working class, in fact you are more parasitic that capitalists. It is also a fact more people have been elevated from poverty through free market means than ever by socialist or marxist practices. A bunch of political whores who will rent themselves out to any group that promises power or votes. The attempts to socially engineer a multi-cultural Britain, are a form of soft genocide aimed directly at the working people the UK. The hubris and hypocrisy of those who currently claim the mantles of “progressive” and pro-working class, while allying themselves to islamic supremacists is revolting. Western Imperialism is wrong, but islamic imperialism is fine and dandy, or are the rose coloured glasses of these idiots the wrong prescription to really see the world around them.

Comment by RealWorker — 21 December, 2009 @ 7:47 pm

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19 December, 2009

KEN LIVINGSTONE ON THE CRISIS OF THE LEFT

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