Philosophy Football’s latest Palestine T-shirt is in support of the third ‘Viva Palestina’ convoy which leaves London for Gaza on Sunday 6 December. The Arabic text translates as ‘A lifeline from Britain to Gaza’ on the back the convoy route. The convoy is staffed by volunteers, carrying hundreds of thousands pounds worth of vital humanitarian supplies via a route which takes them through Northern Europe, Greece, Turkey, via Jordan and Egypt before finally crossing into Gaza. That crossing will be of huge symbolic importance. A year on from Israel’s murderous assault on Gaza the third convoy of vehicles in a year arrives representing all that is best in popular internationalism. And every vehicle, many are fully-equipped ambulances, will be left in Gaza to carry out essential public services which have been devastated by the Israeli army and air force.
All profits from the shirt help fund the convoy . Wear it with pride, be part of making history on the road to a free Palestine.
SPECIAL OFFER - BUY THE SHIRT BEFORE THE CONVOY LEAVES ON SUNDAY AT £5 OFF - JUST £15.99!
Details of the convoy and its progress from www.vivapalestina.org
T-shirt available in sizes S-XXL from http://www.philosophyfootball.com/view_item.php?pid=561
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
DELETED
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:14 am
Aid relief for a besieged population, most certainly anti-semitic. Please stop belittling anti-Jewish racism David. And troll off.
Comment by The Friendly Lefty — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:23 am
DELETED
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:27 am
DELETED
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:34 am
If you can lie about a translation, what else are you lying about? Why would you make up a translation to twist a political point?
David, what is your interest in lying like this?
Comment by Dirty Red Bandana — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:36 am
#6
David Taube is a Zionist. It’s an ideology founded on a lie and sustained on lies.
He’s an apologist for ethnic cleansing, apartheid and the murder of men, women and children.
He is that species of mammal known as scumbagigis.
Comment by Anonymous — 3 December, 2009 @ 11:49 am
david
Gaza is incredibly poor, and there is desperate poverty there. Within the last year they have suffered horrific war damage.
the convoy is delivering solidarity and aid to a beleagured and desperate population.
You do yourself no favours by your callous and spiteful sniping against it, or your implied justification that becausue Hhama has some stupis policies, then the civilian population who voted for them deservce to suffer
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
#11
David T lied about what the translation of the Arabic text of the T-shirt said.
The content of that comment #1 has now been deleted
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Andy, how confident are you that the funds raised will be used by Hamas to relieve poverty and not to attack Israel or other political enemies within Gaza? More than 50%?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:34 pm
You’ve seen that the money was handed over directly to Hamas.
Viva Palestina could have chosen different partners. But instead, it chose to provide its aid to Hamas. It also chose, as a co-trustee, Sabah al Mukhtar. A man who - if you hadn’t deleted the information - your readers can see believes that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are correct.
Gaza’s poverty - as you can see from these photographs - is as nothing compared to places that are suffering from desperate poverty.
http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-64161.html
I used to be an anti-Zionist. I still prefer voluntary pooling of sovereignty by independent nations, in regional federations.
However, it was the exposure to the deep, genocidal antisemitism of Islamist politics, and the enthusiasm for political movements such as Hamas that ultimately convinced me that Jewish nationalism was a necessity.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:35 pm
(enthusiasm for Hamas of those on the ‘Left’, I mean)
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:36 pm
Andy, are you deleting my comments? If you are I wish you would say so because it will save me the bother of posting them. And really you should let others see that you are deleting so thay can judge the degree to which you want to cocontrol this debate and draw their own conclusions.
I don’t think I said anything contentious when I pointed out that Hamas were a violently antisemitic organisation, did I? Hamas do not deny, so I don’t see why we should.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 12:40 pm
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/24/sabah-al-mukhtar-elders-fan/
Andy is prepared to overlook far right wing antisemitism if it involves his mates.
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:02 pm
re David Toube’s 12.35pm..
Conversely I used to be a Zionist However, it was the exposure to the deep, genocidal anti-Arabism and anti-Palestinianism of Likudniks and Yisrael Beteinu-niks and Betarniks and Kachniks/Kahanists and settler/colon politics and utterly dishonest hasbara-niks, and the Zionist enthusiasm for military massacres such as the cynical murderous attack on Gaza’s civilians that ultimately convinced me that Palestinian nationalism was a necessity and that the Palestinians had no partner for peace, a fact which over the years had delivered the Palestinian electorate’s votes to Hamas.
Comment by am filastin chai — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
“Resistance remains our only option. Sixty-five years ago, the courageous Jews of the Warsaw ghetto rose in defense of their people. We Gazans, living in the world’s largest open-air prison, can do no less.”
~ Mahmoud al-Zaher, Hamas negotiator and health minister, April 2008.
Not what I’d call antisemitism but John Meredith and David T don’t sound like the types to let truth get in the way of imperialist pro-ethnic cleansing propaganda
Comment by Tony — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:33 pm
“However, it was the exposure to the deep, genocidal anti-Arabism and anti-Palestinianism of Likudniks and Yisrael Beteinu-niks and Betarniks and Kachniks/Kahanists and settler/colon politics ”
Yes - so am I.
But, conversely, you can support (for example) the right of the Palestinians to self determine, and to have a secure homeland, without supporting Hamas.
The point is that Viva Palestina has aligned itself directly with Hamas, gives Hamas money, and has as a trustee a man who thinks that the Protocols are a good guide to Jewish power.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:40 pm
Viva palestina gave money to the elected government in Gaza, in their capacity as the government; they did not give money to Hamas as a political party in competion with other Palestinan social and politicall forces.
Galloway has repeatedly expresed his preferred support for Fatah, and for the politics of Arafat over those of Hamas.
Hamas is however elected government, and in the tradition of that part of the world, it is necessary to recognise those are the “facts on the ground”.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:46 pm
“Not what I’d call antisemitism2
Tony, you mean being a member of a political party with the express charter aim of murdering Jews does not strike you as antisemitic? What would strike you as antisemitic?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:53 pm
How do you feel about the protocols of the elders of zion Andy ? Just how antisemitic does somebody have to be for you to criticise one of your comrades ? Obviously for you it has to be worse than quoting approvingly the protocols.
If you’re prepared to ignore such blatant antisemitism then maybe it’s time to pack it in Andy. If you’re political project relies on such extreme antisemitism then maybe you need to consider whether it’s all worth it ?
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:56 pm
Incidently
harry’s Place have no posted a libellous article claiming two untruths:
i) that I personaly have deleted comments on here; and
ii) that I am supporting a fundraiser for hamas
They have disabled comments on it, so I cannot reply.
Neith of those statements are true, and with regard to the claim that I am supporting a fundraiser for hamas that is clearly damaging to my reputation.
I suggest they correct these untruths and apologise, or I will sue them.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:56 pm
“Viva palestina gave money to the elected government in Gaza”
Which is a committed antisemitic organisation. Viva Palestina did this in the full knowledge that the money would likely be used to kill or intimidate Jews and/or other political enemies of Hamas. They could have avoided this by taking goods instead of money. Aftyer all, it was a convoy. If they were in good faith, that is.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 1:59 pm
“and with regard to the claim that I am supporting a fundraiser for hamas that is clearly damaging to my reputation.”
Andy, will you guarantee that any money raised will not go to Hamas with the promise that you will categorically withdraw support from Viva Palestina if this proves to be untrue? If not, it does rather seem that you are supporting a fundraiser for Hamas, doesn’ it?
And who was deleting comments if it wasn’t you?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:01 pm
Doh! By pointing-out the antisemitic nature of Hamas you will only serve to treble the contributions!
Its obvious that “starving Gazans” is a myth.
Comment by Cookie Cutter — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:10 pm
Galloway has repeatedly expresed his preferred support for Fatah, and for the politics of Arafat over those of Hamas.
Well he may prefer them, but he handed money over to a Hamas official.
I did post a video of him doing so, but you deleted it!
i) that I personaly have deleted comments on here
I’m happy to amend it, if you didn’t delete it.
Who did delete it then?
Are you happy for me to post all the information that your unnamed co-blogger deleted? Or will that be deleted as well>
ii) that I am supporting a fundraiser for hamas
I repeat John’s point above.
Really, if you seek to sue us on the basis that you’re promoting a fundraiser which will give money to Hamas, but that this isn’t a Hamas fundraiser
… I think you’ll lose.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:10 pm
#20
I am not accountable to an anonymous internet troll.
I am opposed to anti-Semitism, I am also aware of the context that Israel’s behaviour in the Middle east has created a climate where there is a lot of naive receptiveness for arguments that occassionally reflect anti-Semitism. that needs to be opposed, but shoudl not be allowed to become an obstacle to dialogue.
For example, i would not refuse to work with gay rights activists who reflect or promote Islamophobia.
There is a difference between people who are primarily motivated by solidarity for the Palestinians, who are naive or stupid enough to be uncritical of European traditions of anti-Semitism; and people who are primarliy anti-Semitic and who are jumping on the palestinian bandwaggon to try to cloak and legitimise their Jew hating views.
Occassionally i hear people saying things that are anti-Semitic; i challenge them on it privately, but if they are just naive then it is not an obstacle to joint work. In contrast, those people who are actively organising around hatred of Jews should be excluded from Palestinian solidarity work.
What is disgraceful is the attempt to anathemitise people seeking to give political and practical solidarity with the beleagured population of Gaza.
What is intereting of course is that this is ttally representative of the “lets just give war a chance” narrative in Israeli politics that seeks to anathemetise any representatives of the Palestinians, and therefore make any negotiated settlement impossible.
As Desmon Tutu pointed out, you don’t need a peace process for dealing with people you like, you need a peace process for dealing with people you hate, and who hate you. that is the way forwad for conflict resolution.
It is hardly a novel discoivery that many palestinains have very negative views of Israelis, and there is some audience for anti-Semitism among them. Equally, many Israelis are Arab hating racists or religious fundamentalists. The task is to find a way to end the conflict, and that means building bridges in a very difficult context.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:10 pm
Viva palestina is now a charity under UK law, under the superviion of the Chaity commission.
It would therefore be impossible for Viva palestina to give money to Hamas under Uk law.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:12 pm
I pay taxes to the UK government, does that mean I am a fundraiser for the Labour party?
If money is gven to the governemtn of gaza, then that is not giving money to hamas qua a political party.
this seems an absolutely obvious legal and political distinction to me.
David T.
I would not lose a libel case as what you have written is clearly both untrue and designed to damage my reputation.
Whether it is worth my time and money to pursue it is however a seperate question.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
#25
“I’m happy to amend it, if you didn’t delete it.”
Then do so. I didn’t delete it.
#23 “And who was deleting comments if it wasn’t you?”
None of your business.
Who does the moderation on hary;s Pplace?
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:18 pm
#29
Galloway was giving money to the Gazan government, not to Hamas as a political party.
Viva paletina was not a UK registered charity at that time.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:19 pm
“For example, i would not refuse to work with gay rights activists who reflect or promote Islamophobia.”
You would work with a gay rights organisation that called, as a foundational aim, for the death of all muslims? Really?
“In contrast, those people who are actively organising around hatred of Jews should be excluded from Palestinian solidarity work.”
Um … unless thay are Hamas?
“What is disgraceful is the attempt to anathemitise people seeking to give political and practical solidarity with the beleagured population of Gaza.”
There are many ways to do this without funding Hamas. Think of all the people who do work for, say, the homeless without once giving money to the Labour Party.
“As Desmon Tutu pointed out, you don’t need a peace process for dealing with people you like, you need a peace process for dealing with people you hate, and who hate you. that is the way forwad for conflict resolution.”
It is a useful reminder. But, just to remind you, Desmond Tutu never collected money for the National Prty in his struggle for peace. Unless you know better?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:19 pm
but many anti-arpartheid activists did raise money for Steve Biko, remember his slogan “One Settler, One bullet”
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:21 pm
Andy, you seem to be suggesting above that the payment to Hamas was a sort of ‘tax’ (presumably in the Don Corleone sense). Did you get any guarantees as to what it would be spent on? Can we see them?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
“but many anti-arpartheid activists did raise money for Steve Biko, remember his slogan “One Settler, One bullet”2
But not Desmond Tutu, to whom you referred. Keep up Andy.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:25 pm
#33
“Would you REALLY work with such a person?”
I have done. I worked with evangellical Christians in an anti-deportation campaign a few years ago, who were trying to stop a mentally challenged Ukrainian girl being sent back there.
They were virulantly anti-Gay, and also anti-Semitic. (Incidently they were very strong supportes of Israel, but beleived that all Jews would be killed on judgement day, i think they just though Israel was useful to put them all in one place, and alos had some significance for the second coming in their bizarro world view). they were all members of UKIP.
the point is, that if you agree with people on a single issue, then unles they are actual facsists, then you can work with them on that issue, t doesn’t mean they have to be their mates
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
Desmond Tuto was prepared to work with other liberation forces. I have never heard any condemnation from Tutu towards Steve Biko.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
but many anti-arpartheid activists did raise money for Steve Biko, remember his slogan “One Settler, One bullet”
No Andy.
That was the slogan of the disgusting Pan African Congress / Azanian People’s Liberation Army.
I don’t believe that Steve Biko had anything to do with that, or the PAC/APLA.
Show me that I’m wrong.
This is what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission had to say about the PAC/APLA:
“PAC action directed towards whites to have been gross violations of human rights for which the PAC and APLA leadership are held to be morally and politically responsible and accountable”
Incidentally the PAC’s leader in the Western Cape, Achmad Cassiem is presently being toured around the UK by the Islamic Republic of Iran’s front organisation, the Islamic Human Rights Committee, incidentally. He hates Nelson Mandela btw - thinks he is a sell out.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:31 pm
“I have done. I worked with evangellical Christians in an anti-deportation campaign a few years ago”
You mean you funded these people, or you worked in an organisation in which they also worked? There is a mighty difference and I think your wriggling around on this pin is telling.
“Desmond Tuto was prepared to work with other liberation forces.”
I know, but you were talking about funding a repressive racist government as a pragmatic ‘peace’ move and you defended that with reference to Tutu, but he never did such a thing, so your point was lost.
“I have never heard any condemnation from Tutu towards Steve Biko.”
The point being?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:33 pm
Wow the Zionist trolls are hard at work. I will re-post my quote from a real-life present day representative of Hamas and the Gaza government. “Resistance remains our only option. Sixty-five years ago, the courageous Jews of the Warsaw ghetto rose in defense of their people. We Gazans, living in the world’s largest open-air prison, can do no less.”
Perhaps John Meredith or another Zionist might like to explain what’s so antisemitic about that quote.
Of course I wont hold my breath waiting. Troll-like, they’ll continue to respond to something that Yale University *claims* Hamas said 20 years ago (when the organisation was barely existent). Oddly enough the Zionists seem to relate to that Yale document the way the Black Hundreds related to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion! But then different types of racist are all kind of similar even if they have different positions on who is the master-race and who is the untermenschen.
Comment by Tony — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
“That was the slogan of the disgusting Pan African Congress / Azanian People’s Liberation Army”
The notion that during the period when the liberation struggle was being waged one would have referred to the “disgusting” PAC (which attracted at the time many different strands of politics) is surreal. There would have been nothing wrong with funding activists from the PAC. I knew one young student activist who had been in the PAC and was in exile.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:51 pm
Tony. Here’s what Viva Palestina trustee Sabah al Mukhtar said about six months ago (not 20 years ago)
“At one time or another there was this talk of the Protocol of Zion and everybody said that it was a put-up job, it’s not true, it is not factual, all sorts of accusations of this book. But at the end of the day, let’s assume they are all correct, that this is really not a real book and it was not the Protocols of Zion. This is an incredible insight, some hundred years ago, to show what the position nowadays. The control over the media, the education, the law, the medicine.”
But you just ignore this Tony and call people names (it’s easy being abusive on the internet isn’t it Tony, though in real life i guess you’d run a mile).
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:51 pm
Andy has generally done a much better job calling out the anti-Semitic anti-Zionists - the Shamirs, that numpty from Indymedia UK back a bit who wasn’t so sure about the gas chambers - than too much of the Left. Such work isn’t easy and Andy has stepped up to it.
Unfortunately, to argue that Hamas isn’t institutionally anti-Semitic, that its anti-Semitism is just a few rough characters here and there but the exception rather than the rule, is wishful rather than factual. This is what makes the ‘Protocols’ issue more than a detail. Gaza is not Hamas; to show solidarity with one does not require showing solidarity to the other.
Comment by comment — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
“Perhaps John Meredith or another Zionist might like to explain what’s so antisemitic about that quote.”
Tony, nobody suggests that every remark made by antisemites will be antisemitic. That would be absurd. Nick Griffin, for example, says ,mmany things that are not about race and many other things about race that are unremarkable or even positive. He is still a racist though. And likewise anyone who joins an organisation that demands as, as a charter aim, the death of Jews is an antisemite by definition. Or do you disagree? Are you one of those who just can’t see racism anywhere?
“Troll-like, they’ll continue to respond to something that Yale University *claims* Hamas said 20 years ago (when the organisation was barely existent).”
Yale claims it and Hamas does not deny it. They did not just ’say’ it 20 years ago, like a casual remark at a cocktail party, though, they wrote it into their foundational charter. In 20 years they have not seen fit to remove it. What does that suggest to you?
“Oddly enough the Zionists seem to relate to that Yale document”
Just to reiterate and clarify: ‘that Yale document’ is the Hamas political charter, written by Hamas and stating their political aims and values.
“But then different types of racist are all kind of similar even if they have different positions on who is the master-race and who is the untermenschen.”
Ah, now we begin to see where you are coming from.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 2:55 pm
Why is it a remarkable statement? Perhaps you could clarify? On the western cape the PAC was an influential force amongst ‘the comrades’ who sustained the township uprisings. Some of this reflected the legacy of BC (ie black consiousness), in the aftermath of the Soweto uprisings of 1976 when large numbers of school students were gunned down by the Aparthied regime. Inside the townships during this period there was strife between different groups (often involving terrible violence) some of it deeped by the State’s use of “third force” infiltration etc. Which particular organisation young activists confronting the Aparthied regime joined often depended on geography as much as belief. The Anti-Aparthied movement of the time campaigned against this repression. There was indeed political polarisation in the liberation movement inside South Africa, as there is in any genuine mass movement, but the maelstorm of violence was one overwhelming shaped by the repressive institutions of the South African State. David T has apparently forgotten all of this. Some of us have not. The comrade in question was 16 years old and an organiser amongst school students. On her way home comrades ran out and told her not to go home as she would be arrested. She was smuggled out of the country and ended up in London. Perhaps David T thinks she should not have been helped by Socialists or the Anti-Aparthied movement because the township organisation she was involved with was affiliated to PAC.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:16 pm
You think the PAC was a “genocidal movement”?
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
There seems to be some random deleting going on again. Has the thread been hacked, Andy?
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:34 pm
David
Firstly, you have committed an internet ettiquette violation bu posting a hosy=tile articel about me, and then closing the comments form on it, thus directing all the numpties and yahos who polute you site over here.
Secondly, your site claimed that i had personally deleted comments, when i hadn’t
and you site drew the ocnclusion that i was running away from inconveirt arguments, when clearly I am not becasue I have left hostile comments here and replied tio them. So that would be another liw you have published about me.
notwithstanding the fact i am preapred to debate with you on this issue, there is a large element of trolling going on whereby cmmenters are not seeking to actually debate, but to denounce, and deflect the discussion solely to revolve around their own agenda.
So if some of the repetitive troling gets deleted, that is not “censorship”, once the substantive political point has been made once and allowed to remain here. I fact of course deleting copmments is never “censorhip” - it is editorialising.
Now I have answered you, that hamas as a political party is not being funded or supported, but the government of gaza cannot and shouldn’t be by-passed in deliveting support for the palestinians trappped in Gaza.
I cannot understand why you are posting pictures of markets in gaza. What does that prove? Even in the great bengal famine of 1942 there was food in the markets. I am sure the shops were full during the Great potato famine in Ireland. the hardship of the pealestinian people
the point about the PAC and others who raised black nationalist slogans during the apartheid era is that white settlers used these slogans as an excuse to calim that they were aced with an existential threat and would fight to the death for apartheid.
In fact compromise was reached and apartheid dismantled without all the whites being killed, and those who had previoulsy argued this extreme poistion wither changed their minds or were marginalised by the development of the peace process.
You however seek to use the same tactics as the pro-apartheid white supremacists who argued that black extremism meant they couldn’t possible compromise.
If you delegitimise the idea of dealing with the actually elected and representative government of the palestinians then you lock out any prospect of future compromise and political solution. I supoose you think if you lock the Gaza paople in a huge open air proson, starve them deny the medicine, beseige their economy, slander them , bomb them, invade them and slaughter their familliss in front of their eyes, then in the course of time they will become more moderate and generous minded towards Israel.
if you delegitimiase the idea of working with people who naively fail to challenge some forms of anti-semitism, then you abandon the idea of dialogue and the possibiity of changing their minds.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
#47
“There seems to be some random deleting going on again. Has the thread been hacked, Andy?”
I am not deleting any commnts.
Other moderators may be.
You can hardly complain, your arguments are still here. What is being objected to is the method of trolling and hectoring, obsessing over details, and just using abuse.
if you wish to debate do so. If you wish to abuse, then go somewhere else.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:49 pm
David T
A coment of yours was justed delted.
I was goinf to delete it myself, but anothe rmoderator got there first.
You are not trying to debate, you are hectoring and lying.
You are seeking to stop suypport for the palwestinians being discussed.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
Andy,
The point is that Hamas have no interest in any peaceful solution. They say so plainly in article 13 of their charter:
“Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement…. There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
I do not think they could make it any plainer.
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:54 pm
Was it David T who stooped to posting pictures of markets in Gaza, therefore attempting to trivialize will Palestinian suffering in a way which he pretends to abhore elsewhere? It is interesting that in his relentless campaign against any form of solidarity with Palestinians he has now been forced to reproduce arguments which belong in the era of PW Botha (ie nonsense about the PAC having been a “genocidal organisation”).
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 4:59 pm
Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
“But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah.” (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
“The people of Syria are Allah’s lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.”
Comment by Abu Babu — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
He really should stop making comparisons between the movement against Aparthied and the movement against the occupation. Nothing good will come of it David T. I’d bow out gracefully if I were you.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
“You are seeking to stop suypport for the palwestinians being discussed.”
I am seeking to establish that:
(a) Hamas embraces in its Covenant, which leading members of Hamas repeatedly endore, genocidal antisemitism:
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews
Also this:
They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests.
(b) that Viva Palestina gave cash to senior Hamas officials:
http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/610x-300×202.jpg
(c) that Viva Palestina trustee, Sabah al Mukhtar believes:
“At one time or another there was this talk of the Protocol of Zion and everybody said that it was a put-up job, it’s not true, it is not factual, all sorts of accusations of this book. But at the end of the day, let’s assume they are all correct, that this is really not a real book and it was not the Protocols of Zion. This is an incredible insight, some hundred years ago, to show what the position nowadays. The control over the media, the education, the law, the medicine.”
However, whenever I post this material, it is deleted.
Now you have explained why.
You think that if people knew that Viva Palestina operates in this way, people wouldn’t give it money.
But I disagree - a lot of people who support Viva Palestina do so PRECISELY because this is its politics.
My only question is: if you really are opposed to genocidal antisemitism, why do you support Viva Palestina?
Surely there are other charitable ventures you could support which don’t have these features?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:04 pm
Ah and along come David T’s allies on the far right of the argument. David T how about getting some members of the broederbund along as well?
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
The task is to find a way to end the conflict, and that means building bridges in a very difficult context.
Andy, can you point to any posts at SU that encourage the building of bridges, as opposed to the many posts that offer only a one-sided demonization of Israel.
Comment by Gene — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
“Ah and along come David T’s allies on the far right of the argument”
How much more “far right” could you get than the Protocols, John?
Isn’t that classically, definitionally “far right”?
Or are the Protocols now part of the Left wing cannon?
Ditto the Gharkhad tree?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
The PAC garnered much support on the basis of fears of a sell-out to the white regime by activists on the ground. This also meant that in South Africa members of the left often joined them (the Trotskyist Unity Movement was affiliated, and Neville Alexander was an important figure). As Andy notes they eventually joined the negotiations alongside the ANC. One reason why David T is a bit foolish to keep raising parrallels with the struggle in the Occupied territories. Presumably he would have opposed negotiations with the PAC just as he opposes negotiations with Hamas today.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:10 pm
I can’t work out what gets deleted.
Let me try this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8QFEfY_Z_w
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
How much more disengenuous can you get David T? Does’nt it get tiring this endless refusal of rational debate and the politics of smearing?
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:29 pm
“If you delegitimise the idea of dealing with the actually elected and representative government of the palestinians then you lock out any prospect of future compromise and political solution.”
Leaving aside that Hamas holds power in Gaza through a military coup, we can agree at least that it is the de facto government. But refusing to fund such a government is not the same thing as “delegitimis[ing] the idea of dealing” with it. Viva Palestina is funding an organisation that is committed to the killing of Jews. It claims that this is necessary to aid the Gazan people, but it does not explain why. Why not simply use these funds to (say) buy another ambulance? If Hamas has demanded payment, we should be told, otherwise I really cannot see the point of pretending that VP is not funding Hamas.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:29 pm
Where’s John Wight ? Andy has defended him before and denied the holocaust website linking , “international Jewry” quoting Wight is an antisemite in the past on SU ,so it’s no surprise that he is willing to ignore protocols of the elders of zion antisemitism. After all The Respect project is what counts and Andy needs to keep in with the Muslim Brotherhood supporting MAB otherwise his little Respect project will collapse and it’s his last chance to be involved in building a party.
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:29 pm
Gene would presumably have been deeply hostile to the anti-aparthied movement. Endlessly engaging in the demonisation of simply one side of the conflict, and effectively acting as a barrier to peace.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
“Presumably he would have opposed negotiations with the PAC just as he opposes negotiations with Hamas today.”
It is amazing that this simple point is so difficult to get over, but here it is again: we are not talking about ‘negotiating’ but of funding. You can negotiate with Hamas without funding them, unless you know something we don’t.
Comment by John Meredith — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
David Taube (or is it Toube?)
I didn’t know that you were once an anti-Zionist. What on earth changed?
Do your Zionist buddies know about your secret past, I wonder?
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/10/fancy-that-david-taube-signs-up-to.html
Comment by he's a very bad man — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
“As Desmon Tutu pointed out,…………”
That’s a bit like quoting Forrest Gump!
Comment by Cookie Cutter — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
I did explain my position earlier, but sadly it was deleted by a man who I suspect wears cable-knit sweaters for a living.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Except of course that the whole attempt to manufacture a scandal out of the Palestinian Aid convey stems from support for Israeli sanctions and the siege against Gaza, shamefully supported by both the US and the EU, because of the refusal to recognise the electoral result delivered by the Palestinian people as a whole. In other words a refusal to seize the mettle and negotiate with Hamas and support for the policy that ensued and has led to the complete derailing of the peace process.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:42 pm
Its as if De Klerk never made the leap and the result was the discrediting of the ANC and Harry’s Place relentlessly supported a campaign of repression against PAC and the blockading of townships in the name of peace. And then proceeded to smear all those who campaigned against this as genocidal maniacs. Then were rather perturbed that the South African far right started infesting their comments threads. Thats as nice a parrallel for the situation the bloggers at Harry’s Place find themselves in today as any.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:45 pm
Nazi Party
Nazi Government
I can see now how one is good and one is evil now it has been explained that there is a difference between a political party and a government. But I need help. Which ones are the Antisemites?
Comment by Cookie Cutter — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:45 pm
Which is presumably why David T has started regurgitating PW Botha era propaganda about the liberation movement in Aparthied South Africa. In the end, it has to be admitted, there is a certain logic…
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
johng.
No. The reason for the scandal as to the Palestinian aid convoy was that the front man of that convoy, George Galloway, went there to donate money to a genocidal and antisemitic organisation: Hamas.
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
#71
“Then were rather perturbed that the South African far right started infesting their comments threads.”
Your parallel is exactly right, execpt that harry’s place don’t seem worried at all by the far right yahoos who infest their comments threads.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 5:57 pm
They do occassionally express unease to be fair. Then they come over here and regurgitate all their arguments.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
johng,
The difference is that Harry’s Place tend to let most comments stand. I doubt that you have ever had a comment deleted on that site and I doubt that Andy Newman has either. Yes, it is true that some with distasteful views populate the comments boxes but these people do not get rights to post above the line.
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:07 pm
#74 “The reason for the scandal as to the Palestinian aid convoy was that the front man of that convoy, George Galloway, went there to donate money to a genocidal and antisemitic organisation: Hamas.”
so many porkies crammed into one sentance
Giving aid to the people is gaza is not supporting hamas.
Giving money to the gaza government is not supporting Hamas. Hamas is a seperate organiation from the state, and has its own infrastructure and armed force. the gaza government, which is led by Hamas following an election, provides schools, hospitals, maintenance of roads, licencing of businesses,a police service, negotiates aid from donor governments and NGOs, provides a postal service, and export and import licences. and all sorts of other aspects of civil administration. For the desperately impoverished and disadvanatged people of gaza the government is absolutely necessary. And these aspects of civil administration do need to be supported.
Now we learn from Mikey that hamas is a genocidal organisation. This must be a genocide like the one that david t accused the pan-African congress of. A genocide that exists only in your imagination; and rather a sick joke.
As regards it anti-Semitism. Hamas has some documetary links with a dodgy document. so what. Until 1959 the German SPD was formally committed to marxism, do you think that German social democracy were genuinely committed to the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, just because it was in their constitution. Do you think that the Republic of Ireland were genuinely keen on getting the six counties back before the Good Friday Agreement just becasue it was in their constitution.
the actual practice of hamas is not anti-Semitic, and is highly pragmatic - hence the long term cease fire they observed against Israel - and which they offered to renew but were rebuffed over last year.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:10 pm
Yep , Andy true to form is an apologist for the antisemitism of Hamas. Have a biscuit Andy.
What about the Viva Palestina trustee Sabah al Mukhtar , Andy. He only said this 6 months ago :
“At one time or another there was this talk of the Protocol of Zion and everybody said that it was a put-up job, it’s not true, it is not factual, all sorts of accusations of this book. But at the end of the day, let’s assume they are all correct, that this is really not a real book and it was not the Protocols of Zion. This is an incredible insight, some hundred years ago, to show what the position nowadays. The control over the media, the education, the law, the medicine.”
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
So ANdy , are you saying that Hamas is not antisemitic ?
Comment by Viva and the protocols — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:31 pm
Thats not true actually Mikey.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:31 pm
For those interested in understanding Hamas the book ‘Hamas: Political Thought and Practise’ by Khaled Hroub is invaluable.
Comment by Eddie Truman — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:33 pm
Andy,
Hamas certainly is a genocidal and antisemitic organisation. It positively quotes in Article 7 of its Charter (a Charter that it has refused to change) a statement urging Muslins to kill the Jews. This is both genocidal and antisemitic before we even begin.
Secondly Galloway did not give money to the people of Gaza but to Ismail Haniya - a Hamas leader.
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:35 pm
Its very odd the way those like Mikey are incapable of responding in a rational way, but simply repeat themselves over and over again.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
“Giving money to the gaza government is not supporting Hamas.”
And likewise, giving money to the Labour government is not supporting Labour.
Fantastic logic.
Comment by Mark T — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:40 pm
johng,
I am responding in a rational way. I just find it stunning that you are so blind to the words that Hamas put in their covenant. Moreover, given you support the end of Israel (or do you call it “the Zionist entity”?,) what kind of peace would you be happy with? You would only be happy when Israel ceases to exist. You uniquely pick upon Israel for this. You do not say that Egypt should not exist or that Iran should not exist - it is only Israel that you say should not exist. You may say that you are against nationalism and Zionism is a form of nationalism but the vitriol that your party use against Zionists is not matched by any vitriol against Palestinian nationalism. This is a double standard and as is clear from your posts on this thread, you seem incapable of criticising Hamas for their genocidal and antisemitic views.
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:44 pm
#79
I already answered this at #26 above.
this is like groudhog day where you keep making the same points, even when they have been answered.
YOur real aganda is clear, to prevent discussion of solidarity for the plaestinains.
Now you need to learn something here. That sort of anathematisation worked reasonable well for Zionists when they had the majority of public sympathy, and the palestinisans were regarded with suspicion. Of course in the USA that situation still obtains to a degree.
But in Europe now the tables have turned, most people tend to have sympathy with the palestinians, and by so obvioulsy seeking to disrupt debate about supporting the palestinains you just come over as stupid thugs.
What is of concern is that disgust against Israel does sometimes feed into anti-Semitism.
Ask yourself who is more likelly to be effective at challenging anti-Senitismn within the palestinian solidartity movement, someone like myself who is sensitive to such anti-Semitism and prepared to confront it, or Zionists who show pictures of markets in Gaza to “prove” that there is no hardship there, and who accuse the Pan African Congress of genocide?
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:46 pm
Ask yourself who is more likelly to be effective at challenging anti-Senitismn within the palestinian solidartity movement, someone like myself who is sensitive to such anti-Semitism and prepared to confront it, or Zionists who show pictures of markets in Gaza to “prove” that there is no hardship there, and who accuse the Pan African Congress of genocide?
Obviously the best way to counter antisemitism is to
- give money to Hamas
- through an organisation whose trustee, Sabah al Mukhtar, believes that the Protocols provide an “incredible insight”
Similarly, Nick Griffin is best place to teach us about how to prevent anti-immigrant prejudice. I hear he has a Master Plan!
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
Andy,
If you are going to challenge antisemitism within the Palestinian solidarity movement, can we expect to see a post by you denouncing Hamas for their antisemitic and genocidal covenant and urging others in the Palestinian solidarity movement to shun that organisation?
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:52 pm
“Hamas is a seperate organiation from the state, and has its own infrastructure and armed force.”
ha ha ha ha
Remember all those Fatah activists, thrown from the top of buildings?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:53 pm
Mikey, Andy answered your point. And so could I (but I did it over and over again on HP for years and years, and finally, there is little point if people refuse rational argument). Instead of responding to him, you simply repeat yourself, with perhaps the flourish of adding more and more personalised lies and smears about the person your arguing with. Why on earth would anyone bother having a debate with you?
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
The zionists here are probably genocide deniers, so let’s ignore them.
Until they and their controllers are prevented from the mass genocide of Palestinian people, then the Palestinian people will elect whoever they feel most able to defend them, whoever most willing to sacrifice their own lives in pursuit of justice.
The Palestinian people are not going to elect a regime who follow my politics or anyone else posting here.
They elected who they chose in a free election. The first thing uS and EU did was to denounce the palestinians for daring to decide for themselves.
The culmination was the siege of Gaza which even during the truce the Zionists refused to lift.
That is why we have to support the people of Gaza with humanitarian aid - medical aid such as spare parts for kidney machines that the Israeli Defence Force will not allow into Gaza.
If you are a supporter of the state of Israel can you tell me how a kidney machine, an elastoplast or even drinking wateris to be considered a terrorist weapon - 60% of Gazans have no access to drinking water.
I am proud to have helped to contribute to this aid and would do so in these circumstances whoever the Palestinians elect.
And of course those posting here have nothing to say about the racism of the Israeli state, let alone the extreme racism of Lieberman
Comment by Howard T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:00 pm
#86
“You would only be happy when Israel ceases to exist. You uniquely pick upon Israel for this. “
Well Israel does have a unique role as blocking the viablity of a plaestinian state, through for example, the wall, the settlements in the West bank, the East-West axis of the settler road system which disrupts the natural north-south axis of Palestinian economy, the annexation of East Jerusalaem, by withholding the funds that legally belong to the palestinian economy under Oslo, through even disrupting law and order by preventing palestinian police from going through IDF check points in pursuit of criminals, there are also the house demolitions, and the ultra-orthodox settlers in hebron and elsewhere. Palestinians politicians and government officials are not allowed transit between the West bank and Gaza, and Israel doesn’t allow the palestnian authority to control its own borders or airspace, and routinely denies access to international visitors. the situation in Gaza is of course even worse than this.
So israel acts to make two states manifestly impossible for the palestinians.
So from the palestinian point of view both two states and one state solutions are impossible to realise without the defeat of Israel. Is it therefore surprising that there is support for hamas?
Personally i think that there needs to be a solution that addesses the need for security and economic prosperity of the whole population, Isrealis and plaestinains, Jews,Christians and Muslims. But the obstace to that is israeli desire to perpetuate war at any cost.
“You do not say that Egypt should not exist “
Well lots of Arabs did say this in the Nasserite pan-Arabist movement; and remember that Nasser did offer peace to israel in 1953, but the response was a zionist bombing campiagn in Egypt.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:00 pm
johng,
Can you point out exactly where Andy answered my point, can you also humour me a little and answer my question to one you? I know you claim that you have done it “over and over again” but surely it is not too much to you ask you to copy and paste one your own explanations?
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:03 pm
Where does David T get the daft idea that people here don’t oppose all forms of racism?
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
#95
Sadly JOhn
david T’s comment has been deleted. By me this time.
It was not a contribution to debate, he is just throwing insults about.
so your comment now makes no sense as the thing it was responding to is no longer there.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
Where does David T get the daft idea that people here don’t oppose all forms of racism?
Er
That you support:
- the handing over of cash to Hamas, which is an explicitly racist and genocidal political movement
- that you deny that this is so
- that you have quite literally nothing to say about the fact that one of the trustees of Viva Palestina believes that the Protocols provide an ‘incredible insight’ into Jewish power.
I’d say that that made you racism-blind at the very least
But actually, I think some of you are racists.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
Put it this way.
If Nick Griffin said:
“At one time or another there was this talk of the Protocol of Zion and everybody said that it was a put-up job, it’s not true, it is not factual, all sorts of accusations of this book. But at the end of the day, let’s assume they are all correct, that this is really not a real book and it was not the Protocols of Zion. This is an incredible insight, some hundred years ago, to show what the position nowadays. The control over the media, the education, the law, the medicine.”
Would you think that was racist.
I don’t expect you to answer that question.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:07 pm
Yes it is too much to ask Mikey. Your politics on this question mean you have no right to ask anyone anything in relationship to it.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:07 pm
“That is why we have to support the people of Gaza with humanitarian aid - medical aid such as spare parts for kidney machines that the Israeli Defence Force will not allow into Gaza.”
Yeah, but you’re not doing that though, are you? You’re giving cash to Hamas.
Comment by Mark T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:10 pm
Make a donation to UNRWA. At least then your money has some chance of advancing the welfare of ordinary Palestinians.
Either that or hand the dosh over to Haniyeh.
The choice is quite simple.
Comment by Mark T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:12 pm
These trolls are just unbelievable liars.
It now seems that anyone who wants to support humanitarian aid to people under siege, who have bene subject to near genocide conditions, where contrary to what they tell us market places are kept empty by the IDF in East Jerusalem, where the Wall goes through farmers’ land having nothing to do with security and everything to do with landgrabbing.
They would have you believe that giving simple medical aid was supporting terrorism. They are so ignorant that they are not even aware that the IDF won’t let simple foodstuffs such as dried pasta through as they consider this to be a luxury good.
They even quote Nick Griffin as proof that some of us (Jewish included!) support anti-semitism!
Forget them. Viva Palestina!
Comment by Howard T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:15 pm
“this is like groudhog day where you keep making the same points, even when they have been answered.”
But Andy, this is the problem Your answers do not actually answer the questions put. They are simply the best rationalisations you can come up with and to anyone outside your set of beliefs, they are unsatisfactory. Hamas clearly states in its charter what they desire, that Palestine was gifted to them by God to the end of time, and it is a religious duty to kill Jews until the land is won back.
Pretending the Hamas charter does not exist is not a very strong debating technique. Neither is building Chinese walls; it simply allows you to rationalise the unacceptable. However it is a technique also enjoyed by the UK government.
Hamas is not legally a terrorist organisation in the UK, and this is where David T is wrong.
The Hamas Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigade(s) is / are legally terrorist, but the political movement is not. This is why Galloway was not prosecuted for financing a terrorist organisation, and how Viva Palestina can become registered as a charity without the associated problems of raising cash for terrorists.
He can safely say “this money is for Hamas” without breaking UK law, and UK politicians can have discussions with Hamas without worry. Knowing what you know of Galloway, do you think he does not know this?
Comment by GMS — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
John? Andy? Bueller?
If Nick Griffin had said what Sabah al Mukhtar said, would you regard it as racist?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
#100 Mark T - how on earth is providing spare parts for a kidney machine cash for Hamas. But there’s the logic of the zionists. Starve the Palestinians to destroy Hamas.
When do you people ever stop and think - if Hamas want to raise cash, are they going to get much inside Gaza or in the rest of the Arab world.
Israel is making Hamas popular, not us.
Israel’s refusal to have a just settlement led to Hamas becoming popular, nothing else.
But you don’t object to the Palestinians having spare parts for kidney machines, then? That’s good because the Israeli state does object.
Comment by Howard T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:20 pm
#98
NO david
you have hit upon the right example.
Nick Griffin is a fascist, the author of “mindebenders, how Jews control the media”, who shares platforms with David Duke, and is leader of a political party that contains a number of long tern national socialists.
That is, his primary political motivation is racist and snti-emitic, and these are the issues that his party recruits over, and all other policies rotate around that aganda.
When griffin talks about the NHS or housing or whateverm these are for him entirely secondary issues, and the main driving ofrce is racism and anti-semitism.
Contrast that with someone who is primarily motivate with humane solidarity with the suffering of the palestinian people, and who is buring with anger about the atrocities committed by the Israeli army, but the settlers stealing land, by talles of palestinian women being forced to give birth at checkpoints, upset by the inhumane wall, and the sustained petty bullying by the occupying Israeli army. As an entirely secndary issue , such people moved by compassion and solidarity with the palestinians might naively come accross anti-Semitic arguments and not have the political background to recognise them for the poison that they are.
Does that make them the same as nck Griffin. no, it doesn’t.
In the case of Hamas. Recall this is an organisation that was at one time funded by israel; and who would not have won an election had Fatah not been destabilised by Israel refusing to honour the terms of the Olso agreement; and indeed Israel refused to allow fatah leasders to visit gaza during the election that Hamas won.
But Hamas is not at heart an organisation with an anti-Semitic agenda, (notwithstanding, some documentary links which do not inform its practice) they are an islamic community based organisation that wants to see justice for the palestinians, and have shown themselves to be pragmatic and willing to negotiate.
they offered a 30 year cease fire to Israel in exchange for israel lifting the blockade. It was Israel who refused that.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:21 pm
#103
“He can safely say “this money is for Hamas” without breaking UK law,”
No - you are wrong on the law
Viva palestina is a charity now.
Chraties cannot fund political parties. It would just as much be debarred from giving money to the Liberal democrats as to hamas.
Chraties could give money via a gvernment, which shows that the law understands the distinction between Hamas and the gaza government, even if David T pretends not to.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
johng,
Now, according to you, I have lost the rights to ask a question. Sounds very Stalinist.
Andy,
As you ask, it does not make logical sense for anyone who claims to be on the left to offer support to Hamas. As David T has pointed out on this thread, their Charter and various leaders openly believe in the truth of the Protocols, a notorious antisemitic document. I think Nick Cohen expressed it well (Whats Left? [Fourth Estate, 2007] p. 348) “Adolph Hitler might have written Article 22 of the Hamas constitution.”
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
“#100 Mark T - how on earth is providing spare parts for a kidney machine cash for Hamas.”
Err… Where has anyone argued that it is?
Are you a nutter?
Comment by Mark T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:24 pm
they offered a 30 year cease fire to Israel in exchange for israel lifting the blockade.
If Nick Griffin offered not to have his cadre beat up black people for 30 years, would you support him?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
In the case of Hamas. Recall this is an organisation that was at one time funded by israel
No it wasn’t
There is some evidence that, prior to the 1988 covenant, the predecessor to Hamas presented itself as a charitable organisation.
Far from ‘funding’ it, Israel merely took the decision not to suppress it.
But guess who is funding Hamas, in full knowledge of its genocidal racism?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
#108
“Now, according to you, I have lost the rights to ask a question. Sounds very Stalinist. ”
Don’t be stupid.
You have not lost the right to ask questions.
But your own behaviour and rudeness means that people do not necessarily feel obliged to indulge you by answering them.
If you think that Stalin’s gulags consisted of nothing worse than people refusing to answer questions yu are being a bit silly.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:28 pm
Andy:
But Hamas is not at heart an organisation with an anti-Semitic agenda, (notwithstanding, some documentary links which do not inform its practice)
This beggars belief. I mean, do you want me to provide you with other material - loads and loads of it - in which Hamas officials deny the Holocaust, call for a new Holocaust, and peddle genocidal racism about Jews?
Is this your argument:
‘If Nick Griffin said such a thing, he would be a bad racist.
However, if Hamas and Hamas supporters say such things, then they are jolly good chaps who are our friends and who we will therefore defend, irrespective of anything that they say or do. Nothing can convince me otherwise”
?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
If you think that Stalin’s gulags consisted of nothing worse than people refusing to answer questions yu are being a bit silly.
Why
What did the Gulags contain?
Let me guess.
Is the answer:
“Enemies of the Revolution”
?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:33 pm
People like JohnG would have been put in Stalin’s Gulags.
Would that have been a good thing?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:35 pm
“But your own behaviour and rudeness means that people do not necessarily feel obliged to indulge you by answering them.”
No, Andy. Here is johng’s comment -
“Your politics on this question mean you have no right to ask anyone anything in relationship to it.”
It is politics - apparently - that prevent him from asking anyone (anyone!) anything about this issue.
Not his behaviour.
Comment by Mark T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:36 pm
This is Alice in wonderland.
Is a hamas government occupying large parts of Israel?
Has Hamas built a huge system of walls across Israel, making Jews queue for hours to get through.
Do Hamas settlers come and steal Jewish land, and prevent Jewish farmers from harvesting their crops?
Do hamas have a racist nationality law that gives less rights to non-Muslim citizens?
Has hamas seized half of jeruslaem in defiance of international law?
Does hamas tolerate half a million illegal Muslim settlers on occupied Israeli land.
No.
But Israel does the equivalent of all those things, and receives massive subsidy both from the US government, and from private endowments from US charities
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:38 pm
Actually Andy,
johng said explicitly to me (#99) “you have no right to ask anyone anything in relationship to [this subject].”
By the way, the Gulag system was started by Lenin. By the summer of 1920 a camp was set up in the Solovetsky islands which Izvestiya had earlier described as somewhere where “the harsh environment, the work regime, the fight against the forces of nature will be a good school for all criminal elements.” (Anne Applebaum, Gulag: A History, [Penguin Books, 2004], p.42)
Comment by Mikey — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:39 pm
#113
No, Hamas are a political party and movement that i do not agree with. They are however the government in Gaza, and sometimes support for the palestinians means dealing with the government. Indeed providing practical and financial support for somoe humaitraian projects is far better done via the existing government infrastructure.
But you are obsessing about things they have said, and not things they have done.
In reality the boot is on the other foot. It is israel who have created the desperate, hopeless seige conditions that have given root to Hamas.
And it is the sort of pathetic demonisation and delgitimisation that you are undertaking here that polarises and removes the middlel ground that might be used to build peace.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
##118
“By the way, the Gulag system was started by Lenin. ”
keep up Mikey, i am no leninist.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
All I’m saying is that you’re giving money to an organisation which has handed over wodges of cash to Hamas, in full knowledge of Hamas’ open and explicit genocidal antisemitism, which they imagine is the will of god.
You also are happy to support an organisation which has as a trustee, a man who believes that the Protocols are an accurate description of Jewish Power.
Now, when Gilad Atzmon said that, you thought that he was a racist, didn’t you? You said so - although of course John G defended him, in accordance with his party line.
However, strangely, when you want to support an organisation run by a man who says the same thing, your much vaunted committment to antiracism simply evaporates.
You can’t actually call yourself an anti-racist, can you?
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
What about those pics from Palestine today? Are they false? Are they perhaps not pictures of Gaza but another part of Palestine?
We’re constantly being told by you guys that Gaza is a starved, brutalized concentration camp of a country but there are no reports corroberating this and no photos - except for those showing mountains of fruit and sweets, huge pies in bazzars crowded by fit and healthy people whose only nutrition related problem appears to be obesity.
Until someone answers the Palestine Today photos / links posted by David I have to assume that some very dark forces are at work here trying to paint the Isrealis as genocidal monsters when, as the simple population statistics from Palestine show, this is simply not true.
Exactly how much are you lying about Palestine? We know you’re lying about it being “genocide” as the population of Palestine has more than doubled over the period in which this terrible crime is alleged. I’m not saying the place is a holiday camp or that the Isreali army are boy scouts, but lying about human suffering in this way is simply sick and will turn people against your cause. Combined with your support for terrorists and fundies and your very nasty, very personal attacks on critics, people are going to end up having no time for Palestine at all, which is a shame if the situation there is anything like as bad as you make out, and not just a bunch of unfortunate people whose extreme right wing government has chosen to spend all their ready cash on bombs and get themselves into a fight with one of the best equipped armies in the world.
Comment by badnewswade — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
Do me a favour.
Listen to the tape recording here:
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/24/sabah-al-mukhtar-elders-fan/
Go on. From 10 mins in.
I want to hear you justify it. Tell me you support Al Mukhtar, and that you’re an anti-racist.
You won’t listen to it, because you know what it will contain.
Comment by David T — 3 December, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
The reports of food shortages, health crisis are not from us, not from Hamas but from such well-known terorist organisations such as Amnesty Imternational and presumably Hamas sympathisers such as Goldstone who recorded the genocide of the war on Gaza by the IDF, who noted the presence of phospherous and the increasingly high incidence of deformed births as a result.
We don’t need your propaganda photos, thank you very much - there have been enough eye witnesses who are in no way supporters of Hamas.
Comment by Howard T — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:05 pm
David I have already answered you.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:05 pm
David I have already answered you.
You are just repeating yourself
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
David T, Mikey and all the rest of you goons. If you refuse to answer anybody elses questions (because of course your only purpose in these discussions is to delegitimate any support for the Palestinian people not supported by their oppressers) why should anyone answer yours? Your entire approach is simply another part of a campaign to silence an oppressed people suffering bitter persecution.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:11 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Hamas democratically elected and does this not contradict John Meredith’s assertion that they seized power by coup? Was that same election not a pre-condition for Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians in the first place? Also, for all it’s alleged genocidal anti-Semitism, Hamas has officially condemned the Holocaust:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/12/hamascondemnstheholocaust
It seems that to me that the Harry’s Place Zionist’s “solutions” to the problems of the Middle East invariably involve either the suffering or deaths of many Arabs and Muslims. But I guess they just bring it on themselves, eh?
Comment by Omar — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:13 pm
Giving money to the gaza government is not supporting Hamas. Hamas is a seperate organiation from the state, and has its own infrastructure and armed force. the gaza government, which is led by Hamas
That was conceivably true when Hamas was first elected, but having maintained power through a coup and such measures as throwing their opposition out of high rises and shooting them in (hospital!) beds, you can no longer maintain that there is such a thing as a civilian government apart from the ruling oligarchy.
Comment by Josh Scholar — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
Er those propaganda photos come from the Palestine news agency.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paltoday.com%2Farabic%2FNews-64161.html&sl=ar&tl=en
From my / lens “Palestine Today” pick up the Gazans scenes preparations for Eid al-Adha
Despite the blockade Gazans go shopping clothes for their children
Shopping and buying Alvake, nuts and needed to receive holiday
Cue images of crowded markets stuffed with clothes, shoes and food.
Here’s the homepage of paltoday.org
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paltoday.com%2Farabic%2F&sl=ar&tl=en
Considering it’s running a story about how Isreal abducted Ukranian children to steal their organs, I don’t think it’s Zionist propaganda. So that’s one less lie for you to tell us.
Say, if there is all this deprivation and hunger where is the evidence? I grew up with images of Africans starving to death plastered all over the media, if this is happening in Gaza how come it’s not got out? Or are you just going to come out with the usual racist bollards about how the Zionists own all the media and so on?
Come on, let’s see you answer this. Or will you just hit delete like you do whenever someone asks an inconvenient question?
Comment by badnewswade — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:24 pm
Andy,
You shouldn’t have to put up with this vilification and bile and neither should genuine visitors to the SU site be prevented from having a reasoned discussion on any aspect of the Israel/Palestine situation.
These ghastly zionist trolls haunt the web specifically to subvert and drown out any meaningful discussion of the plight of the Palestinian people. They are not interested in rational debate - their aim is simply to bully you and anyone else from raising the crimes of the Israeli state or from thinking out loud how the Palestinians might achieve justice by endless cynical accusations of anti semitism and by shear weight of numbers of hostile postings. The general advice not to feed trolls is doubly relevant in their case. They are not interested in free discussion but only in stifling it - just tell them to fuck off and in future delete their hate filled posts as soon as they show their hateful faces.
Comment by Sean T — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:26 pm
Of course the refusal to recognise the democratric will of the Palestinian people, had nothing to do with any of this! Its a very strange kind of argument. These are arguments only effective amongst those who know nothing about the situation. Why not use these arguments with them? Its just frustrating to have to listen to this utter bilge over and over again.
Comment by johng — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:29 pm
#131 is absolutely right, the one thing the Zionists can’t stand is real, practical, solidarity with the Palestinians.
Comment by Eddie Truman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:47 pm
I don’t want arguments - I want facts. The facts are that while there has been forced population transfer and lots of terrible things have happened there has been no “genocide” of Palestinians. The population of Palestine has much more than doubled since 1948! That is a fact.
There is also doubt as to how poor Palestine is as a result of the current war. Is there even rationing there? They have bustling markets, plenty of food, fruit etc, livestock and even luxury foods like sweets.
There are people on council estates in Britain who go hungrier than that. There are uncounted millions of Africans who go MUCH hungrier than that and my fear is that people - good people, good socialists - are allowing themselves to be used by an organisation of right wing political terrorists (or freedom fighters if you prefer) who have a very different agenda to yours.
Please try to see sense. There are serious problems in the world involving incredible class warfare, corporate execs are buying guns while Americans queue for food and medicine, our welfare system is going to be eviscerated to pay for a bailout of the super-rich, a billion people in the third world can’t get a drink of water - all this is much more important than a Punch and Judy sideshow run by one or possibly two groups of self-pitying, opportunistic religious fanatics out to kill their neighbours because they don’t know how else to live.
Just try and see the other side, OK?
Comment by badnewswade — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:48 pm
#122
Are you realy this stupid, or is it a wind up?
“What about those pics from Palestine today? Are they false?”
They may well be pictures from gaza.
You seem to have a very sketchy understanding of how poverty and destitution works.
Stall holders will often be supporting large extended families, and the presence of food in market stalls doesn’t mean that everyone can afford to buy it; nor does it mean that there is enough food for everyone.
the desperate pverty in the West bank is something I have seen with my own eys, and gaza is reportedly worse, the fact that despite their poverty palestinian society is relatively egalitarian and that people strive to ensure that absolute destitution is as limited as possible is to their credit.
“Exactly how much are you lying about Palestine? We know you’re lying about it being “genocide” ”
Wel the only people who have spoken of genocide here, are David t, who thinks that a black organisation calling for the end of apartheid in south Africa was disgraceful and genocidal; and Mikey who thinks that Hamas has commited genocide, rather trivialiing the real experience of genocide for his own political agenda. To me it seesm that if you argue that hamas are guilty of genocide then this is a form of holocaust denial making out that the nazi death camps were equivelent to shooting some home made rockets.
No one here has said there is a genocide being committed by Israel.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:50 pm
#130
“Or are you just going to come out with the usual racist bollards about how the Zionists own all the media and so on?
Come on, let’s see you answer this. Or will you just hit delete like you do whenever someone asks an inconvenient question?”
You certainly win the prize for being the most stupid person that has ever posted here.#
i) you haven’t been deleted
ii) no one here is claiming that Zionists control the media.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:53 pm
Andy, why bother to feed the trolls?
Comment by ECOLEFTY — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:55 pm
#136:
“I don’t want arguments - I want facts. ”
This is the situation in 2008, from the United Nations
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43318
UNITED NATIONS, Jul 25 (IPS) - In both the West Bank and Gaza, young people aged 15 to 24 are the most likely of any group to be unemployed, while the number of households in Gaza below the poverty line has reached an historic high of nearly 52 percent, according to a new report by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) issued Thursday.
“The unprecedented level of poverty in Gaza is bad news,” UNRWA spokesperson Christopher Gunness to IPS in a call interview from Jerusalem. “To resign a whole generation to a future without hope is not in the interest of anyone. It is not in the interest of the refugees we serve as UNRWA, and it is not in the interests of anyone who believes in the wider interest of peace and stability.”
In its report, UNRWA says “the number of households in Gaza below the consumption poverty line continued to grow, reaching 51.8 percent in 2007 (from 50.7 percent in 2006), despite significant amounts of emergency and humanitarian assistance”. By contrast, household poverty levels in the West Bank fell to just over 19 percent from 24 percent in 2006, “likely driven down by the lifting of the international embargo on the Palestinian Authority”.
The UNRWA report, which is based on figures provided by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS), says the average unemployment rate was among the world’s highest at 29.5 percent.
“When adjusted to account for the sharp increase in absentee workers in Gaza during the second half of the year, joblessness in Gaza between July and December 2007 reached an unprecedented high of 45.3 percent,” it said. The figure in the West Bank was 25.5 percent, about double the average unemployment rate for the Middle East and North Africa region.
“The Government of Israel (GOI) and donor boycott of the newly-elected Hamas government, loss of fiscal revenues and the strike of public employees in the last trimester of 2006 combined to produce a 7.8 percent reduction in real GDP in 2006,” the report said. “This decline was accounted for mainly by regression in public sector GDP combined with a stagnant private sector.”
“There’s no doubt that the crisis in Gaza is closely tied to Israel’s siege of the territory,” Sarah Leah Whitson, director of Human Rights Watch’s Middle East and North Africa division, told IPS.
“The very minimum of food that is allowed in, the severe restrictions on electricity and fuel, the inability of Gazans to leave the territory for work or school, and their inability to import needed goods or to export products all mean that Gazans are forced to live at or below subsistence levels,” she said.
According to the PCBS data, in the Hamas-run Gaza strip, the public sector continued to add jobs, including through job creation programmes instituted by the Hamas administration, accounting for a quarter of job growth in 2007.
Looking to the future, the report concludes that “more troubling for the medium and long run has been the low level of investment spending in both the public and private sectors”.
Regarding the interrelation between the socio-economic situation in Gaza and the level of insecurity and human rights violations, Gunness told IPS that the right to a decent standard of living has to be protected.
“We, as UNRWA, believe in the highest level of human development, and see that as an important aspect of our work and of the work of all the U.N. family here,” Gunness added.
“We have to make sure that there are decent standards of living among the certain part of the population we serve, and these latest figures of poverty show that this is not been properly addressed,” said Gunness. “The most important priorities for the U.N. right now are to get… Gaza open for both humanitarian goods and for import and export because we need to serve the refugee population.”
“Israel’s closure policy constitutes unlawful collective punishment, in violation of international law,” said Whitson. “At the same time, there’s no evidence that the policy has served to prevent rocket attacks by armed groups into Israel. Egypt shares in the blame for the suffering of the Gazans, given its refusal to open the Rafah border.”
The report also says that macroeconomic developments in the occupied Palestinian territory (OPT) in 2007 were conditioned by the economic turmoil of 2006.
It notes that the assumption of power by Hamas in Gaza in mid-2007, the dismissal of the elected Palestinian Authority government and the formation of a caretaker government in the West Bank created further turbulence. This was followed by a period of policies and actions on the part of Israel and donors vis-à-vis Gaza and the West Bank that produced significant differences in economic performance between these regions.
Last year, the Israeli government arbitrarily blocked some 670 students in Gaza from pursuing higher education abroad, according to Human Rights Watch. Israel denied exit permits that the young men and women needed to leave Gaza for university programmes in countries such as Egypt, Jordan, Germany, Britain, and the United States.
The students were among roughly 6,400 Gazans with foreign citizenship, permanent residency, work permits, student visas or university admissions abroad, who have been trapped in Gaza since June, when Hamas took control of the territory by force.
Israel has near total control of Gaza’s borders - land, air, and sea. Since June 2007, it has mostly allowed only individuals suffering extreme medical emergencies, some journalists, and employees of international organisations to leave.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
Incidently,
I think that the Harry’s place crew, and the Zionist trolls have been given every opportunity to put their point of view, and any further comment from them will be deleted.
It has contained some hoots, like David t claiming that the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa was disgraceful and genocidal!!!
In the case of badnewswade, it is surely past his bedtime anyway.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 8:59 pm
I repeat, I am going to delete the zionist rolls from now on, they have had their chance, and you can read what a terible censor I am over at harry’s place.
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 9:13 pm
Inceidenty.
Given that we are commenting on racism. This from badnewswade is classic pure racism:
“self-pitying, opportunistic religious fanatics out to kill their neighbours because they don’t know how else to live.”
desperate poor people who have sustained years of seige, and then a blistering miklitary assault by one of the world’s most ruthless armies are accused of being “self pitying”
It is interetsing that the Zionists have utterly abandoned any attempt to win the middle ground in the argument, and resort instead to insulting the victims
Comment by Andy Newman — 3 December, 2009 @ 9:17 pm