SOCIALIST UNITY

12 May, 2009

GALLOWAY ENDORSES GREEN PARTY EURO CANDIDATE FOR NORTH WEST

Filed under: green party, Respect, anti-fascist — Andy Newman @ 10:00 am

Apparently, polling by the Lib Dems and the BNP put the BNP just 1% above the Green party 10% to 9% and 9% to 8% in their respective polls.

This means that my argument that voting labour would be a more effective tactical vote than voting Green would seem to be basically wrong. As the campaign progresses it is certainly within the grasp of the Green Party to overtake The BNP.

Respect will be producing thousands of post cards with this image, and actively urging a vote for the Greens in the North West constituency. What a fantastic result it would be if not only was Nick Griffin denied a victory, but he lost to a progressive, anti-racist and left-wing candidate like Peter Cranie.

I was sceptical about whether Respect’s endorsement would make enough of a difference, because voters don’t often follow the advice of parties over tactical voting, but the task of pushing up the Green vote by just 2%, given the reputation of George Galloway, and Viva Palestina within the communities of the North West may be within our capabilities.

picture by Richard Searle

170 Comments »

I would hope that the name of Viva Palestina wouldnt be used as some sort of endorsement that Respect can hand out.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 11:23 am
good work, hope that the Green Party can give some in return and we can all enjoy a bit more left unity…I am busy with the Euro campaign in the South East where I am a candidate

Comment by Derek Wall — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:11 pm
This isnt an example of left untiy Derek. The nearest to a left unity candidate in that region is obviously the No2Eu candidate.

Left unity will not come about by the big names on the left choosing one party over the others, or the Greens trying to sell themselves as the only option, it will come from parties understanding that their particular group is not the most important, and that a new alignment is necessary.

If this is about stopping the BNP the best tactic would be campaign AGAINST the BNP rather than FOR a candidate whose qualifications for stopping the BNP seem to be based on flimsy evidence such as an “apparent’ poll by the BNP themselves.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
BTW, who is in the pic?

I hope that Viva Palestina isnt being used to campaign for one party when so many supporters of the campaign are in other parties. This is not what VP was about and it shouldnt be used in this way.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:23 pm
DELETED CONTENT

Comment by Marie — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:31 pm
You understand wrong marie? I fully support the Defend Tommy Sheridan campaign, still handle press for that campaign, with others, and, coincidentally, am doing some work on it right now!

You should have realised by now that the rumour-mongers in the SSP base this stuff on wishful thinking and not fact.

This is a thread about Galloway, Respect, Greens, Viva Palestina in the North West of England.

Do you see Tommy Sheridan in everything? He left your party 3 years ago, when are you going to get over it?

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:36 pm
DELETED CONTENT

Comment by Marie — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:39 pm
you really are obsessed marie

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:43 pm
Ahhh

We never tire of the Scottish left fighting like ferrets in a bag.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:47 pm
9. I know, it isnt a patch on the civilised SWP/Respect debate, or the anti-galloway mob lying about his earnings. If only we could behave as well as you lot down south.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
The fact is that Viva Palestina is being used by Respect as a front group and they are using it to openly endorse their activities and candidates. Its pissing a lot of people in Manchester off who thought we were getting involved in a community initiative.

Whats appalling is that despite the protest they’re doing it again with the Pakistani students campaign. The first leaflet that Respect put out on it was terrible (and has since been deleted from the website) but now Clive Searle is openly saying that the election campaign starts here, with this campaign. I can see how that would help Kay get elected but how will that help the Pakistani students?

Comment by Amused Observer — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
Jim

You need to look hard at the fact that even the small vote that No2EU might get in the NW constituency, would probably affect the outcome between getting a labour or Greem MEP, or a fascist MEP.

It is on a knife edge.

Playing silly buggers standing there, presumably just so that you get a party election broadcast by standing in all English constituencies, is a desperatly bad mistake by No2EU.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
DELETED CONTENT

Comment by Marie — 12 May, 2009 @ 12:54 pm
Would be a disaster if the few No2EU votes let Griffin in!
WOuld be nice for Greens and Respect to work closer in the future. As a Green member in Bristol I regret the fact we are standing against each other for council in a number of seats.
I haven’t always been kind to Galloway, but well done to him.

Comment by green socialist — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:00 pm
#12 Andy, you might be right, No2Eu is far from perfect and, as I have said before, have made many mistakes.

My point was a reply to Dereks point on “left unity”. If Respect and Greens had joined foces than that could be seen as a move to left unity, the RMT, CPB, SP, Visteon workers, lynsey workers, Morning Star, Solidarity and others joining up can be seen as laft unity. A left celbrity endorsing one candidate isnt.

On the separate issue of stopping the BNP, you evidence is flimsy, far less weight than your eralier evidence for voting Labour. You claim an “apparent” clue from polling conducted by the BNP and draw a conclusion based on that.

Do you really think that the left campiagning to get 2% more for the Greens is the way to stop the BNP. Using your evodence wouldnt it be better to campiagn for the Lib Dems?

Marie, you will just have to wait until the process takes its course. I know you must be disappointed, but basing things on your (lack of) poor information causes you great stress and you would be better to just sit it out.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
That depends whether you think that NO2EU will attract people who would otherwise have voted Green or Labour or whether it will attract people who would otherwise have voted BNP, UKIP or not voted at all.

The first only really works if you assume, as UAF do, that there is a core ‘pro-BNP’ vote, voters who will only vote BNP or will stay at home, and a core ‘anti-BNP’ vote, voters who will vote for any party other than the BNP or stay at home, and since NO2EU isn’t the BNP then it will automatically take votes from other second category.

I think the most likely electoral impact of NO2EU in the Northwest will be attracting disillusioned former Labour voters, former UKIP voters disillusioned with the antics of that party and people who may vote BNP (this last category largely containing people from the first two categories). In this way I think the impact of NO2EU will be a positive one rather than helping the BNP win the seat in some way by splitting the ‘anti-BNP’ vote.

Comment by Duncan — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
DELETED CONTENT

Comment by Marie — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:08 pm
I think you should cultivate a wider range of interests Marie, this thread isn’t about that.

Comment by Duncan — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
#16

Well the evidence that the Joseph Rowntree Foundation collecting on voting patterns and the far right does suggest that there is indeed a big gulf between those who would consider voting BNP, and those who wouldn’t, and that there is big hostility to the BNP from most voters.

Therefore a strategy of trying to get those who oppose the BNP to vote, and vote most effectively to stopp the BNP, is a good one.

Of course it is also necessary to directly compete with the alleigance of people who are attracted to the BNP, that will take the hard skog of working in the communities, not procaiming an alternative with a few weeks to go before the election.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
DELETED CONTENT

Comment by Marie — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:13 pm
Thumbs up to Respect for doing this. I hope it gives Peter the extra edge that he needs to stop the Nazi filth.

Comment by Aaron — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
# 19

Equally, I could point to evidence from the London Mayoral and Assembly elections and European elections that there is significant cross-over between people who vote UKIP and people who vote BNP, at the last European elections around half of the people who voted BNP in local elections voted for UKIP. S

ince most commentators expect the UKIP vote to be much reduced in this years elections compared to 2004 I think there will be a large number of former UKIP voters who will be looking for an alternative this time round.

When was this evidence you were referring to published? Is it the 2004 State of the Nationa poll by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation?

If so, I would argue that this is out of date and in the intervening period, particularly since the publication of the BNP members list, the number of people accepting the BNP as a legitimate party and willing to vote for it has grown significantly.

Comment by Duncan — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:25 pm
I should add to the above, therefore I think it’s more likely that the electoral impact of NO2EU will be to take votes from parties like UKIP which would otherwise go to the BNP and in this way NO2EU will contribute to stopping the BNP winning a seat not facilitate it by taking Labour and Green votes.

Comment by Duncan — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:27 pm
Dishonesty and back biting comes naturally to some. Amused observer sounds like neither. At the Viva Palestina meeting at which the photo was taken, the co-ordinator chairing the meeting reminded the 200 present that they should use their votes and ask two questions: ‘what did you do when Gaza was attacked?’ and ‘are you against the EU trade agreement with Israel?’. This is entirely in keeping with Viva Palestina’s orientation. Peter Cranie attended the meeting as a supporter of Palestine and a joint statement will be issued by himself and Kay Phillips, Respect National Chair.

On the campaign against the deportations, it is interesting to note Respect has mobilized and helped initiate a broad based national campaign with leaflets, press releases and public meetings in the communities affected, both under its own name and working with the Justice for the North West 10 campaign. No one else has done so or even produced a leaflet. If only all we had to do was to observe….

Comment by Chris C — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:39 pm
Quite agree that Viva Palestina should be kept independent of a particular party. That would just limit its appeal.

Seeing as Respect isn’t standing its own candidate in the north-west it must back someone else’s. The Greens are a broad left-of-Labour party and deserve non-sectarian support. It’s a more serious political force than NO2EU in my opinion.

Every alliance that can be built between Greens, Respect, Labour left etc is positive.

Comment by little black sister — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:43 pm
Andy comment 12
“Playing silly buggers standing there, presumably just so that you get a party election broadcast by standing in all English constituencies, is a desperatly bad mistake by No2EU.”

Wrong Andy playing “silly buggers” supporting the Green Party instead on N02EU (a progressive socialist campaign)is whats wrong. Its also wrong for Respect to be seen to misuse the Viva Palestina campaign which has support across the Left i hope (butless likely if we missuse the logo).

Here are the North West No2EU candidates in case you missed them:

North West – Eight candidates
Roger Bannister – Unison NEC member
Les Skarrot – FBU executive committee
Craig Johnston – RMT executive
Alec MacFadden – President of Merseyside trades council
Steve Radford – Liberal Party councillor
Lynn Worthington – Community and healthcare campaigner
John Metcalfe – Former deputy Labour leader of Carlisle council
Harry Smith – One of the 47 surcharged Liverpool Labour councillors

Comment by Neil Wiliams — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
#22

there was a Jospeh Rowntree report from I think 2006, that analysed voting pattersn, and yes while there was croos ver between UKIP and BNP in LONdon, the Joseph Rowtree reserench suggested this far right cross over was - at that time at leats - restricted to specificly London. and their evidence showed it much weaker outside London.

For sure, No2EU may grab votes from UKIP - if that is your aim, then fair enough.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
Oh no.
What at first looks like a step toward left unity is just a step toward further arguments.
*Cries and bangs head on wall*

I’m glad to see Respect and the Green Party working together - but now people are banging on about no2eu. No2eu has good and bad things - but it is only a temporary deal. I know senior members of Respect has resigned because of the refusal to back no2eu.

Ultimately the left is not going to do well electorally in this election - there isn’t the unity or forces there.
What we can do is use our votes to stop the BNP - that’s all this upcoming election is about for us.

Comment by Futurecast — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:13 pm
“I know senior members of Respect has resigned because of the refusal to back no2eu.”

Please deal in facts! Respect has backed No2EU - it’s just allowed individual areas to decide what to do about it. As it was always likely to, being a coalition. The decision to push something to a vote that never needed to go to a vote was what led to two people resigning their officer positions (but remaining on the national council).

Comment by external bulletin — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
Neil, the people on the ground in the north west - the people who know the area - made a democratic decision to support the greens as the best way to hold back the BNP.

They decided that holding back the BNP was the most important thing right now.

There’s this fetishising going on, that backing socialist organisations, no matter what the context, is all that matters.

In the north west, what matters is stopping Nick Griffin.

I hope you’ll agree with that. And if you do, it follows logically that the electoral calculation is what matters most.

This is starting to remind me of the SWP last year, demanding that everyone back Lindsey German cos she’s the most left wing candidate.

The calculations are the same: What’s best for the working class? In the north west, the experienced activists on the ground decided that the most important thing is stopping the fascists.

The people in the north west are at the centre of the areas where a dozen people were falsely arrested and are now being deported. The Muslim community there is under attack, and you can bet it’ll get worse if Griffin gets in.

That’s what matters right now. That’s the real meaning of “broad”, that’s the real meaning of “rebuilding the left”. The class won’t forgive people who place purity over necessity.

Comment by external bulletin — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
Good points Neil at (26),

NO2EU is arguing for pro-working class internationalism in Europe and across the world in oppostion to EU and domestic governments’ neo-liberalism.

The greens and pro-green Respecters stand for a broad, progressive, cross-class alliance of the centre-left.

Two different perspectives and it’s right that each stands separately in my opinion. Neither is “playing silly buggers,” they’re both genuine, but different perspectives - it’s called democracy.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
“You need to look hard at the fact that even the small vote that No2EU might get in the NW constituency, would probably affect the outcome between getting a labour or Greem MEP, or a fascist MEP.
It is on a knife edge.

Playing silly buggers standing there, presumably just so that you get a party election broadcast by standing in all English constituencies, is a desperatly bad mistake by No2EU.”

Andy, the people playing silly buggers are those calling for a vote for New Labour candidates.

On this and other threads you state that the fact No2EU is standing could mean the BNP get elected in the NW or indeed in other regions of the country.

The reason there is a fascist threat at this election is because of New Labour and the other mainstream parties…not No2EU.

Since 97 we have seen a huge growth in support for the BNP right across the country and in places where previously the left would have dismissed their threat as insignificant.

Whether No2EU existed or not then there is still likely to be the largest vote for a fascist party in this country since the days of Mosley and that fact should be added to the list of crimes perpetrated by this government. A Labour Party that has abandoned any pretence at even modest social democratic reforms and instead has been at the forefront of a neoliberal and imperialist onslaught.

It’s the fact that their faces are in the expenses trough, pandering to their friends in big business, their attacks on civil liberties, their illegal and ill advised wars and there complete abandonment of working class communities across the country that have helped towards the rise in support for the far right.

It’s a sad and desperate situation the left in this country finds itself in at this election calling people not to vote BNP but providing no alternative for them.(And the Greens, although the best of a bad bunch are not an alternative.)

Vote Tory?
Vote Lib/Dem?
Vote New Labour?
Vote UKIP?

Despite my own criticisms of the platform I will be supporting No2EU as I believe it was a genuine attempt to offer a working class alternative in this election.

If we wake up on June 5th to fascists MEP’s then I know who I’ll be blaming and it won’t be Bob Crow, Rob Willaims, Tommy Sheridan or Dave Nellist.

Comment by unity - you know it makes sense — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
For sure, No2EU may grab votes from UKIP - if that is your aim, then fair enough.

I argued it was a likely outcome of NO2EU standing, not the aim of the initiative.

Comment by Duncan — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
Neil: I can see your unalloyed enthusiasm for NO2EU, even if I’m not so enamoured. But can you please stop it from spilling over to mendacious crap claiming that Viva Palestina is somehow being “abused” by Respect. It’s not. And if those claiming it is had anything to do with Viva Palestina, the convoy it led, and the one it is leading in October they would know that to be true.

Comment by Ferrier — 12 May, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
Yeah thats right Karl,

Green/ respect are appealing to one set of voters and NO2EU another, Personally I think there are some people who would vote NO2EU, but not Green, and the otherway around.

I think NO2EU’s real target vote is those who otherwise wouldn’t vote because they used to vote Labour, but feel disenfranchised. I think it may also pick up votes from others who have voted UKIP, and even people who may have voted BNP.

Hopefully, with both the Greens and NO2EU appealing to target voters, it will be enough to prevent Nazi Nick from being elected, but it is looking unlikely.

Both groups should try to get the biggest vote as possible

Comment by ycler — 12 May, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
#34 ferrier - Viva Palestina is clearly being used in this campaign, the original article says that this image wil be used in the campaign. It looks very much like the candidate is endorsed by VP.

This shouldnt happen.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
Jim, you are being mendacious. ‘Clearly’ implies some evidence of Viva Palestina’s crimes but none is produced, just smear (you are not the first). A candidate in the Euro Elections attends a Viva Palestina event along with the Respect MP and national chair. They all support the organization and have a politically important photo taken beneath a poster. How is Viva Palestina being used? It is a broad umbrella and I just wish we had more people wanting to have press opps by VP posters. It beats calling us terrorists.

How about evidence of your clarity?

How about ‘clear’ evidence of your work for Gaza since Christmas before you start barking at the moon?

Comment by Chris C — 12 May, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
#38 - Chris C - “Jim, you are being mendacious. ‘Clearly’ implies some evidence of Viva Palestina’s crimes but none is produced, just smear (you are not the first).”

When you say “us” I hope you include me as a supporter of VP. The article refers to the image being sent out and CLEARLY states that the support of Respect and VP might help the candidate.

I hope you regret linking my thoughts with calling “us” terrorists.

I am not accusing VP of anything, I am accusing Galloway and the Green candidate of using the VP name by hinting that he is the prefffered VP candidate.

#38 - “How about ‘clear’ evidence of your work for Gaza since Christmas before you start barking at the moon?”

Do you really want me to produce evidence of how I support gaza before you will ‘allow’ me to criticise a Green party candidate?

How about evidence of any role in VP that allows you to grace me with your approval?

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 3:34 pm
Jim Monaghan: I’m sure the picture will be suitably cropped. Jeez! If people on the British left responded with the same alacrity to political developments as they do when they spot an opportunity to heresy on the hunt among themselves, then things might be in better shape. I’m reminded of what Che said about the US left - ‘If you asked them to form a firing squad they’d get into a circle.’

Comment by Ferrier — 12 May, 2009 @ 3:58 pm
#40 - The point is that those of us who support VP do not do so as a badge that candidates can wear as an endorsement, especially when FBU and others who gave massive support are standing under other banners.

There is nothing wrong with a candidate stating their support for VP, that is different from an implied endorsement for a candidate from VP.

You and Chris are being deliberately obtuse. My point is clear and it is right.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:03 pm
i am guessing you may want to delete comment 37 andy.
M

Comment by matt willgress — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:09 pm
#35

think NO2EU’s real target vote is those who otherwise wouldn’t vote because they used to vote Labour, but feel disenfranchised. I think it may also pick up votes from others who have voted UKIP, and even people who may have voted BNP.

Hopefully, with both the Greens and NO2EU appealing to target voters, it will be enough to prevent Nazi Nick from being elected, but it is looking unlikely.

Both groups should try to get the biggest vote as possible

YCLer. You have to understand how this specific election works. Under the d’Hindt system only parties thta get more votes than the BNP will affect the outcome.

There are only two effective left votes, either for Labour where the third candidate on the list who is the onle directly comtetinig with the BNO, Thereas Griffin, is a left winger; or Green, where the lead candiate Peter Cranie is a socialist, and all round good egg.

No2EU cannot get the 9% or so needed to deprive the BNP of a seat. In any event, I personally would rather have Peter Cranie as an MEP than Roger Bannister.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
That is if no2eu actually take up their seats as well. Was that ever cleared up?

Comment by Aaron — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
#42 Andy - “No2EU cannot get the 9% or so needed to deprive the BNP of a seat. In any event, I personally would rather have Peter Cranie as an MEP than Roger Bannister.”

It isnt the case that No2Eu need 9% to stop the BNP getting a seat. My experience of this sort of predictive tactical voting is that it rarely ever works out how it is planned.

#43 Aaron - “That is if no2eu actually take up their seats as well. Was that ever cleared up?”

No2Eu wouldnt give up the seat nominally, it differs from region to region how they would actually deal with winning a seat. Dont know about North West England.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:19 pm
Electoral maths that argues that No2EU will let the BNP is as old as the hills, we hear it all the time from the French Socialist Party here, ‘If the Communist Party stands for this seat or that council then it will go to the NF or the L’UMP!’, I’ve heard commrades in the PCF using the same arguments against the NPA. Niether argument is right, there is no guarantee that the alienated working class communist voters would vote socialist if they couldn’t vote PCF, nor that the middle class students and altermondialists that form the NPA’s voting base would vote PCF if they couldn’t vote NPA.

Party hacks love adding figures together to blame others for their own party’s failure.

If the Greens don’t get elected by 200 votes, the BNP pick up the bottom seat, and No2EU get 300 it won’t be the latter to blame, because those 300 No2EU voters would probably have not voted Green anyway. The reason will be is that the BNP has a strong white working class following and expresses their fears and offers simplistic solutions that play on peoples concerns in these tough economic times.

On another anglo-franco point, I was talking to an LCR guy that brought his fraction into the PCF a couple of years ago. He argues that in times of economic hardship we Brits vote right in a sort of, ‘if I only have a little I’m keeping it’ sort of way and vote left as things get better and we feel we can afford luxuries like schools and hospitals, whereas the French tend to vote right in times of economic prosperity, on the basis of what I work for I want to keep, and vote left in times of recession on the basis of now its someone else’s job to look after me.

…now that is really cynical.

On that basis we should have some good results over here- helps that the FN is broke.

Comment by pete shield — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:22 pm
The key issue in Euro elections is getting people to vote full stop, a decent turn out would stop the BNP a bad one would aid them if they can get their voters out.

Comment by pete shield — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:23 pm
“In any event, I personally would rather have Peter Cranie as an MEP than Roger Bannister.”

Fair enough Andy, then you should vote for him and it’s right that you and other modern-day “euro-comms” have that choice.

Personally, I wouldn’t vote at all if NO2EU weren’t standing, so I’m glad I have that choice and that other pro-working class lefts have this.

My hope is not that NO2EU will win the election - that would be great, but of course it’s not going to - but that the experience of the Communists and Socialist parties working together, with RMT activists, will be a positive step towards building the Workers Party that our class needs.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
#44 “It isnt the case that No2Eu need 9% to stop the BNP getting a seat. ”

Well explain how that works to me Jim

Al the predictiosns are that the BNP are set to get 8% plus.

Under the d’Hondt electoral system, any party that gets less votes than them will not be counted.

So how is a vote for No2Eu effective at stopping the BNP?

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
#47 “Personally, I wouldn’t vote at all if NO2EU weren’t standing, ”

Even where there is a clear and present danger of the BNP winning a seat? pathetic.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
I am shocked that somebody on this website would rather not vote and risk the BNP getting in. Socialist you ain’t.

Comment by Aaron — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
er, the voters do not choose under any system, they just put an ‘x’ against their preferred choice.

We will see many voters not voting and others looking for someone to vote. latest polls suggest that the expenses fiasco will benefit smaller parties. Some voters will choose no2eu who might otherwise vote BNP, that is obvious. If that small number of voters dont vote BNP then the votes wont help the BNP under any system.

Also, we have another candidate out on the streets telling people why they shouldnt vote BNP, here in this blog we see a straight conflict between no2eu and BNP in carlisle. That will also have an effect on the BNPs actual vote.

Andy: “Al the predictiosns are that the BNP are set to get 8% plus.”

Is that true, “all”? until this article you were saying that we need to vote for Labour to stop the BNP, you changed your mind on what you claim “apparently” BNP and LIb Dem private polls. If all of the evidence is that voting for Petere Crainie will stop the BNP then present this evidence. So far you have come to a conclusion based on the BNPS own poll.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 12 May, 2009 @ 4:44 pm
Andy,
What your strategy here amounts to is an attempt to frighten working-class people into either rallying behind one of the capitalist parties, or supporting your vague centre-left progressive alliance of middle-class liberals.

In effect, what you’re saying is that our class should simply cower in fear of the BNP and meekly accept its political disenfranchisement.

That truly is pathetic

Constantly bringing up the spectre of the BNP

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
Press statement from No2EU - Yes to Democracy:

No2EU – Yes to Democracy sends out call for protest vote over MP’s and EU sleaze on June 4th

Britain’s newest political grouping, No2EU-Yes to Democracy, today sent out a message to voters disgusted by the trail of sleaze from Westminster to Strasbourg – if you want to punish the political elite don’t get sucked in by the fascists and the far right, support the only organisation standing nationally on June 4th that opposes the political gravy train and which supports workers rights, public services and social justice.

No2EU-Yes to Democracy is led by RMT general Secretary Bob Crow who is topping the organisations slate in London. It is running candidates on June 4th in every region of the UK except Northern Ireland.

Amongst the No2EU slate is former Labour Dave Nellist who is standing in the West Midlands. As an MP Dave was well known for taking only the average workers wage and for donating the rest to campaigns and charity.

“The growing evidence of widespread ‘creative’ claims for expenses by MPs of all parties illustrates how rotten our political system has become. And the potential for making money on the side is even greater with MEPs’ expenses than Westminster”, Mr. Nellist said today.

“Someone claiming benefit who ‘worked the system’ like MPs appear to do would be interviewed under caution and almost certainly prosecuted. A failure by an unemployed family to declare a change of circumstances to the authorities can count as fraud, and be subject to the full force of the law. The difference is, of course, that MPs make the law - and it really is, one law for the rich and one for the poor”.

Bob Crow, No2EU Convenor and RMT general secretary, added:

“We have seen today that while MP’s and MEP’s have been lining their pockets at the tax payers expense there has been a massive increase in unemployment and the minimum wage, under pressure from the bosses, has been increased by a pathetic 7 pence an hour. It’s no wonder people are so angry with the political elite.

“No2EU-Yes to Democracy wants people to use that anger and pass it over to us in a protest vote on June 4th that will rock the rotten establishment all the way from Westminster to Strasbourg.”

ENDS

Further information:

Geoff Martin 07818 513 435

Brian Denny 07903 376 303

Comment by No2EU — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
Can people please disregard the last sentence of my post at (51) “Constantly bringing up the spectre of the BNP.” It was part of a further point I was going to make and I thought I’d deleted it.
Apologies

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:04 pm
Karl: it trips so easily off the tongue doesn’t it - ‘middle class liberals’. This is one of the things that’s so dispiriting about the British left.

Comment by Ferrier — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:09 pm
Ferrier, middle-class liberalism is, in my opinion, the class basis of the broad, progressive, cross-class centre-left alliance that Andy and others have consistently argued for.
I’m not condemning it or arguing that it shouldn’t exist, just that that’s what it is and that it’s not a perspective that I share.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:21 pm
Karl, I know you have a lot of time for Galloway personally, so it must be a disappointment to you that things have reached this pass. I think it is inevitable given the way his faction of Respect(Classic) defined themselves in opposition to the SWP. The belief that they had mass support which could be turned into multiple election victories if only the dead hand of John Rees was removed from the tiller has turned into shady deal-making with anyone claiming to be progressive (but not too left-wing) as that vision has faded.

#54 A lot of Greens are personally honest and believe in what they’re doing. But if you want to sneer at Karl Stewart for talking about middle class liberals it would behove you to actually produce some reasons why his wrong. If you can (produce some, or reason at all).

Comment by skidmarx — 12 May, 2009 @ 5:22 pm
Wouldn’t it be absolutely terrible if the votes for The Greens, instead of going to a broadleft alliance like No2EU, went to the BNP instead!
The Galloway Respect tendency should be ashamed of themselves for endorsing that bunch of liberals. But what do you expect - Galloway does not take the average workers wage does he? He likes the green stuff along with the rest of the current lot of MPs. Come on George, show us you are Red, not Green!

Comment by Henry — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
skidmarx - ‘if only the dead hand of John Rees was removed from the tiller’. I think you’ve got yourself a bit confused between your party, the SWP, and Respect. Check the record. Galloway wanted Rees to stay as Respect National Secretary, but in a more collective leadership. It’s your Central Committee who threw Rees through the top floor window.

As for the ‘middle class liberals’ rubbish. It’s all too easy and all to often from people on the far left in organisations that are and have been disporportionately middle class. It’ such a ridiculous way to argue politics. Its one of the hallmarks of the cynical, embittered hackery you so sum up.

It’s evidently too late for you, skidmarx. But it’s not too late for the rest of us to break out of this ghetto and try some collaborative working on the broad left.

Comment by Ferrier — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:13 pm
It is quite rich for people to argue vote Green to stop the BNP, as if the green party and anyone who has voted for them or been a green candidate were never tainted by fascism.

Well, at least not one former NO2EU activist was on the BNP membership list. This reveals that people who might have voted green may vote BNP. To speculate is pointless.

At the end of the day the more people who vote, the less likelyhood of a BNP MEP.

NO2EU will get people who have never voted/wouldn’t usually vote/did vote UKIP to vote.

Comment by Gary H — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:21 pm
What on earth are you on about Gary H? I think it was a handful of people who had been Green Party members and then joined the BNP. I remember one seemed to work his way through all political parties, and I think every organisation has a fair number of people who are definitely not Green/Liberal/Labour/Tory/Socialist. This is very worrying if this is the level that some people stoop to.

The Greens are completely against any form of racism, homophobia, sexism and all forms of discrimination. Just look at our policies.

Comment by Aaron — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
What on earth are you on about Gary H? I think it was a handful of people who had been Green Party members and then joined the BNP. I remember one seemed to work his way through all political parties, and I think every organisation has a fair number of people who are definitely not Green/Liberal/Labour/Tory/Socialist. This is very worrying if this is the level that some people stoop to.

The Greens are completely against any form of racism, homophobia, sexism and all forms of discrimination - just look at our policies. “Tainted by fascism” - are you having a laugh or is there something I am missing?

Comment by Aaron — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
Simply increasing the turnout only denies a strong minor party of a seat if there is a threshold to cross. So, a slightly higher turnout in the London Assembly election would have reduced the BNP’s share of the vote from just above the 5% threshold to, say, just below it.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work as simply as that when there is seat allocation on the d’Hondt system without a minimum hurdle. The thing that matters then is who is best placed to take the last seat.

If Labour had, say, enough votes for 2.9 seats. Then increasing their vote by a relatively small amount would give them a third seat. If the Greens had enough for 0.9 seats, the same applies. If NO2EU has enough for 0.1 seat then increasing its vote by a factor of 8 will still not deprive the BNP of the bottom seat.

It’s complicated because the seat allocation depends not just on the absolute vote, or even on the percentage share, but on the spread of voting between the parties. But it unfortunately isn’t the case that a vote for a party that is well short of getting a seat will count in depriving the BNP of a seat.

Imagine in the north west that a million extra people came out to vote and they all cast a vote for each of a million new party lists (loony1, loony2, loony3, etc [please allow for one minute that the Electoral Commission would accept these different list names as sufficiently different]).

Now, the vote would go up by 1 million voters, or by, say, 50 percent.

That will reduce the share of the vote for the BNP. But it will reduce the share of the vote for every other party as well. There is no minimum threshold, so no one is knocked out. Clearly, none of the million loony parties will win a seat.

The bottom seat on the allocation will still be fought out between the BNP, the Greens and whichever of the major parties is hovering around an additional 0.9 of a seat. Who gets that seat will depend on who gets extra votes.

The mere fact of extra votes does not determine the outcome.

Comment by Ferrier — 12 May, 2009 @ 6:42 pm
Well, I prefer middle class liberals to working class fascists, and the rise of the BNP suggests there are far too many of the latter, thanks to the chronic inability of the British left to present itself as a viable and attractive alternative to New Labour.

And organisatons like NO2EU, trying to refight the battles of the past, are part of the problem. Karl Stewart claims that NO2EU is all about working class internationalism. But that is not what its name proclaims.

Normally a slogan “No to x” mean we are opposed to x. Nobody has any doubt what we mean when we say “No to Trident” or “No to ID cards”. So the voters will certainly conclude that NO2EU is all about pulling Britain out of the EU - UKIP with a trade union face.

The comrades of the CPB who appear to be the main force behind NO2EU should accept that we lost the 1975 referendum and move on. The call for EU withdrawal is an impossible and reactionary dream, a diversion from the task of building a better European Union.

As for Karl’s suggestion that if it weren’t for NO2EU he might not bother voting at all - he hasn’t grasped the mathematics of a proportional representation election in multi-member constituencies.

In first-past-the-post elections, if you live in a safe labour or tory seat, then your vote won’t make much difference and you might as well stay in bed. But under this PR system every vote really does count.

The sure way of keeping the fascists out is by boosting the vote of those of the non-fascist parties who have a realistic chance of getting elected. Every extra vote for labour, lib dem, greens and even the tories, makes it less likely that the BNP will break through the threshold needed for a seat in the European parliament.

Those of us who can’t stomach the thought of voting for New Labour have two viable choices on the centre left, the Greens and the Liberal Democrats (I know that’s heresy to some purists, but the lib dems are way to the left of new labour on civil liberties issues).

As for Karl’s complaint about “rallying behnd one of the capitalist parties”, the awkward fact is that, if we live in the real world, we don’t have much of a choice. Politics is often about choosing the lesser evil.

Comment by paul fauvet — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:21 pm
Ferrier,
You go ahead with your progressive cross-class alliance if you wish, no-one’s trying to stop you.
But, those of us who believe that the working class is the force that can end capitalism need to work towards a different end - that of trying to build a serious and united Working-class political party.
In my opinion, it would be hugely positive if this green/pro-green Respecters axis continues to develop as a separate entity to our attemtps to build a serious Workers Party.
Such class/political demarcation aids political clarity.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:21 pm
#51 Jim you asked:

“Is that true, “all”? until this article you were saying that we need to vote for Labour to stop the BNP, you changed your mind on what you claim “apparently” BNP and LIb Dem private polls. If all of the evidence is that voting for Petere Crainie will stop the BNP then present this evidence. So far you have come to a conclusion based on the BNPS own poll.”

Yes, it is a toss up whether voting Labour or voting Green is better, but both are good tactical optioons to stop the BNP, and both of the candidates in contention for that last place instead of Nick Griffin, are broadly left wingers.

The predicted polling for the BNP is where we expected it to be, the suprise for me was that the Greens were so close.

If the polling from both the BNP and Lib Dems is showing the Greens as running close to the BNP, then it doeas make good tactical sense to vote Green; equally some may prefer to vote labour.

Either way, these are the parties that can stop the BNP.

I get the impression that you and Karl and others are completely reckless about the BNP threat. Possibly No2EU could have taken votes from former labour voters considering voting for the BNP if you had actualy been in a position to campaign for months, or were able to mount a huge media campaign, but you haven’t and you can’t.

The truth is this is a d’Hondt election with no minimum threshold, and any vote for a prty that gets less votes than the BNP is completely ineffective in stopping them winning.

All your talk of anti-racism and internationalism is just so much hot air if it means you taking votes away from parties who are in competition with Nick Griffin for that final seat, so that the BNP end up with an MEP and on the EU gravy train.

And NO2EU supporters on here are boasting that they wouldn’t even vote to stop the BNP! They cannot tell any difference between the BNP and the Labour Party!!! Pathetic.

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
I was going to respond to some of the more outrageous comments on this thread but realised that I had a life.

Comment by Richard Searle — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
Karl, you’ve got this all backwards. And, as Ferrier said elsewhere, it’s as if there’s only One True Path towards working class self-organisation.

Beating back the BNP is of crucial importance in the north west. We can be as ideologically pure as we want, but do we want to start from a position where the BNP has an MEP or where it does not have one? They are a very real threat in the north west, and the backing of the Greens by Respect is a tactical judgement based upon the best chances of holding the BNP back.

There are those, me included, who will say that the left is so weak and small, the very idea of a “workers party” is some way off, and we have to make much more strategic decisions right now. So, we can spend our time building a workers’ party that will have zero impact and close to no audience (30 people at a CPB meeting, which sounds very much like the left talking to itself? How about hundreds of working class people at a meeting in Birmingham hearing Galloway and others talking about taking aid to Gaza - the latter is so much more likely to be the axis around which a new working class alternative forms), or we can make a tactical temporary alliance aimed at making sure the working class is in a stronger position the day after the European elections.

Similar calculations were made about Livingstone vs Johnson. The SWP and its friends would’ve taken the same line as Respect were it not for the split - everyone, surely, accepts that the working class in London is in a worse position because of Johnson’s victory last May?

That very real tactical consideration is a major part in rebuilding the left in this country.

I fear that by concentrating solely on the “purity” of a “Workers Party”, you’re actually absenting yourself from the very real work needed to get people to even consider listening to the left.

The workers’ party is important, and the ending of capitalism by the working class is absolutely what I believe in.

But I also think that we have to be realistic about where we are and what we can achieve right now.

It might not even take the form of a workers party for some time. The amazing working class self-activity we saw when hundreds of people went to Gaza recently shows that the class will do surprising things when given the chance. Those people - the hundreds (over a thousand in many cases) who came to public meetings about Gaza, that was the working class. They’re not really members of anything, they’re turned off by the ridiculous posturing of so much of the left, they want a political alternative but aren’t really looking to build one. But they’re our audience, and if we fetishise some pure workers’ party, we risk ignoring the very people we want to attract.

We’re all trying for the same goal here. Just because there’s this idea of a “Workers Party” (can we stop capitalising the words?) doesn’t mean that that is the ONLY thing to do right now, and doesn’t mean that those who don’t see it as their central task have any less a view of the working class as the agent for overthrowing capitalism.

Comment by external bulletin — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:34 pm
62. “The call for EU withdrawal is an impossible and reactionary dream, a diversion from the task of building a better European Union.”

Sorry Paul the EU has nothing in common with internationalism - you can’t see that though can you?

Any move towards genuine socialism by (the workers) of any member state would mean they would be expelled from the EU at best and in all likelihood would lead to the rest of the EU preparing for military force againt that state in alliance with the US (NATO). At that stage it would be necessary to call to the workers (of other countries) to overthrow the EU and the estabish a socialist European Federation anything else is a ‘reactionary dream’.

Comment by ARF — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
And in other news;
Chavez launches a cheap mobile phone / MP3 player made by nationalised industry with the Venezuelan slang for the male penis as it’s name.
Total genius.

Comment by Eddie Truman — 12 May, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
Paul at (62) says we don’t have a choice. Wrong Paul, we can choose to vote for the internationalist, pro-working class NO2EU candidate, or one of the capitalist parties, or the middle-class Greens. I would choose to vote for the former, you disagree. I think that’s fair enough, but the fact that I have a choice seems to outrage you and your fellow centre-left liberals. Why is that?
I wouldn’t vote if NO2EU wasn’t standing - I last voted in 2001 for SLP - so no-one else is “losing” my vote.
Andy, it’s not true to say we’re “reckless” about the BNP threat, I just take exception to your call on the working class to cower in fear at this threat and run and hide under the “protection” of either the ruling class or the namby-pamby liberals.
My view is that our class can best fight for our own interests by building our own political party.
External Bulletin, we’re not all arguing for the same outcome. The modern-day “Euro-comms” are arguing for a vague cross-class progressive alliance and pro-working class lefts are arguing for the creation of a workers party.
A working-class political party is certainly not a narrow concept - our class makes up tens of millions of people in the UK alone and it is these people - our people - who are our constituency.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 8:12 pm
So called tactical voting is both unprincipled and ultimately counter productive. People should vote for what they believe in.

There is only one Socialist party contesting the North West region in the coming election. That is the Socialist Labour Party. That’s who socialists should vote for. As for the outcome? We’ll leave the electorate to decide that, unlike some here we are not so arrogant as to think we know better.

Comment by Jim — 12 May, 2009 @ 9:10 pm
It is absurd for Karl Stewart to say that those of us who advocate voting to keep out the BNP are urging the working class to “cower in fear”, or to “run and hide” under the protection of liberals.

There is nothing wrong with working with liberals against a common enemy. Or perhaps you’ve never heard of the popular front? Your sectarian approach smacks of Comintern ultra-leftism cerca 1930.

I’m not “outraged” that you plan to vote for NO2EU - I just think it’s a political mistake. And, despite my hostility to the anti-EU project,I would be delighted if NO2EU manages to outvote the BNP - but given the hasty way it’s been thrown together, just a couple of months before the election, I fear that is extremely unlikely.

And if NO2EU takes votes away from the Greens or from Labour, and comes in below the BNP, then the mathematics mean that unwittingly NO2EU may have helped the BNP win a seat.

I wish there were a viable socialist party (or even a decent social-democratic party of the Scandinavian variety) that we could vote for. But there isn’t. Voting for the greens, the lib dems or labour is not a surrender to liberal politics - merely a tactical move to keep the BNP out of the European parliament.

And I am not, personally, a “centre-left liberal”, but I would wear your other label, “modern day euro-communist”, with pride.

Comment by paul fauvet — 12 May, 2009 @ 9:17 pm
“Centre left Liberal” and “modern day euro communist” amount to much the same thing in my experience.

And I think the “modern day” revisionist conception of the “popular front” as implied in some comments above amounts to not much more than the lowest common denominator. What used to be referred to as “the unity of the graveyard”. The vile lies of fascist organisations need to be tackled head on. People are desperate and that’s why some mistakenly turn to the likes of the BNP and their deceitful and sleekit blend of radical rhetoric and racism. There is only one genuine alternative to the corrupt, miserable society that we live in today and that’s socialism.

Comment by Jim — 12 May, 2009 @ 9:38 pm
# 71
“And if NO2EU takes votes away from the Greens or from Labour, and comes in below the BNP, then the mathematics mean that unwittingly NO2EU may have helped the BNP win a seat.”

Or No2EU may divert votes away from the BNP as people feel that they at last have an alternative party to vote for that opposes what they see as the undemocratic nature of the EU whilst at the same time not advocating the politics of hatred.

It may be that the BNP will lose votes they otherwise may have got from (lets face it) white working class voters.

That’s not being ultra left or “playing silly buggers”.

The fact of the matter is that in many working class areas of the country advocating a vote for Labour will be met with absolute and understandable derision.

Comment by unity - you know it makes sense — 12 May, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
It may be a good thing that if in one region Respect and the Greens have some kind of electoral agreement in other regions and other circumstances these two significant formations on the progressive side of politics might reach similar agreements with other parties and groups
.
Electoral alliances are for particular elections. The important thing is for people to overcome electoral egoism in favour of sensible tactics.

In the very pleasant port town of Meze where I had my lunch today the mayor is a Green who is elected as part of a Green, Communist and Socialist electoral agreement. Across the water the regional councillor and former deputy, is a communist fisherman elected by a similar formula. If the French can do why can’t we.

In the EU elections this alliance breaks down because the PS and the Greens are tied up with the EU (the greens in France and Germany on this issue are plain reactionary) and the NPA dazed and confused. So the only EU critical option is the alliance of PCF, Parti gauche and the NPA dissidents.

No2EU is a specifically British formation for this election and breaks new ground. Its great strength is the way in which it makes the issue of principled unity against the main direction of British capital the dividing line in working class politics.

Comment by Anonymous — 12 May, 2009 @ 10:35 pm
Not really anonymous as above. Just trigger happy

Comment by Nick Wright — 12 May, 2009 @ 10:37 pm
#73

“The fact of the matter is that in many working class areas of the country advocating a vote for Labour will be met with absolute and understandable derision.”

Well let us put that to the test. Will the derisible labour vote be more or less derisible than the No2EU vote?

If call to vote lbaur are greated with drrision, then how should we judge perties that get less votes than labour?

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
Andy #76, you are predicating much on an assumed continuation of a mass working class vote for Labour on June 4th.
Bad mistake.

Comment by Eddie Truman — 12 May, 2009 @ 11:00 pm
#77

Eddie, for sure Labour are going to take a hammering, and the actual performance may be worse than the polls suggest if Labour voters decide to show their disapproval by abstention, in what they see as a largely irrelevent election.

But even the worst predictions still indicate that the Labour Party will get a mass vote. they are locked into chronic, secular decline, not rapid catastrophic meltdown.

I am however prepared to place a substantial wager with you that the Scottish labour Party outpolls, the SSP in JUne, will you accept such a bet?

Comment by Andy Newman — 12 May, 2009 @ 11:22 pm
Paul Favet (71),
In the current situation, in which our class has no political representation as a class, those of us who believe that class politics are primary are correct to prioritise the attempt to build a serious working-class political force.
No-one in NO2EU has asked anyone else to stand down Paul, we say go ahead with your middle class green+liberal +1/2Respect coalition if you wish.
Both the neo-liberal wing of the bourgeoisie and the centre-left liberal wing of the bourgeoisie already have so many political choices and we do not ask any of you to stand down.
Our class has had no political voice, so now, just when our political voice begins to emerge in the shape of NO2EU, don’t ask us to step down.
Have I heard of the “popular front” tactic? Yes I have, but it is not necessarily the answer in every situation.
As for your reference to the 1930s comintern, come on Paul, this is now, don’t look at everything through the Soviet experience.
And you say you wear the “Euro-comm” label “with pride,” well the original euro-comms did great damage to the working-class movement and that’s why it’s important that today’s re-emerging working-class left is on its guard politically against this current generation of euro-comms that you, Andy and others represent today.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 12 May, 2009 @ 11:58 pm
Yes, form a great big popular front against the BNP to stop people voting for it, fine. But the BNP will still exist afterwards, and worst, the parties you’ve worked with and helped get elected to stop the BNP continue to attack working people as they do which therefore helps to create the conditions for the BNP to exist. What a nasty circle. New Labour’s abandonment of the working class, as the only party that has ever vaguely fought in their interests, has left working people at the mercy of the BNP. New Labour pass laws and put corporate profit before working people. Who are they going to turn to now to represent them? The BNP? So has this popular front tactic worked? Well, yes we’ve stopped the BNP getting in (hopefully), but the same capitalist parties that did get in are making life even worse for working people and the BNP’s membership and support is growing to the point where the popular front tactic just aint gonna keep up.

Another way of looking at it: My enemy’s enemy is my friend.

Or another way: You’re working with the actual parties that are creating the conditions that help the BNP grow… mmm…

What NO2EU-YES TO DEMOCRACY has done is to offer the abandoned working class a truely working class alternative to both the BNP AND all the other parties that simply attack working people.

Any socialist should see this and support NO2EU-YES TO DEMOCRACY.

Comment by pete — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:28 am
We’ve laid out the draft of the postcard with the photo of Peter, George and Kay on it. It calls for a vote to Stop the BNP. It has quote on the back from each of them. It carries a distinctly pro-palestinian message.

We’ll do a first print run of 20,000, and then some

Now if that anoys some people then tough, and frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

We will look to distribute in Manchester, Rochdale, Bury, Oldham Bolton, Blackburn for starters

What we’re about is trying to stop that slug Griffin getting a seat, part of that is boosting the turn out in any way we can

It will be tough trying to stop Griifin, but even harder if he’s elected.

Comment by Richard Searle — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:31 am
To my mind it’s an unassailable point that Labour and the main parties have created the political conditions for a BNP advance.

Those who say that calling for a vote against the BNP without being able to advocate a credible left alternative to the mainstream is problematic have a point.

But it begs the question. Why isn’t there a credible left alternative (NO2EU is not credible and no one is making an evidence-based argument that it will have any impact on the apportionment of seats)?

The left must surely look long and hard as to why that’s the case.

There may be different analyses and solutions arising from that and the tactical flexibility around elections suggested by Nick Wright above is helpful in how all might work together.

But there has to be some serious rethinking. Karl Stewart makes a doctrinally pure case for something like an SLP mark 2. But why did mark 1 go wrong, and the SSP, and the SWP’s model of Respect? Failure to address this, I fear, will leadbto the same aging bunch of follically challenged leftists arguing over a comb.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:48 am
And the best of luck to you Richard. As I said, no-one in NO2EU is asking you not to stand or not to campaign.
I’ll be helping with the NO2EU campaign in the London area and, as YCLer said earlier, I hope each of us, we in NO2EU and you with your “Green-plus-half-of-Respect” coalition, get as many votes as possible.
Why do I want you to de well? Because it’s far better for our class if elements of the bourgeoisie can be won away from neo-liberalism by bourgeois/liberal centre-left politics such as yours.
But that social group is not a key target constituency for us and our class will not be prevented from developing our own politics.
I see NO2EU as an important initial step in that process.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:22 am
While I can see that RESPECT in the NW feel bound to their promise to support the Greens, and that the tactical consideration may mean that voting Labour / Green might be a plan in order to stop Griffin (although the dangerous logic of this is to always step down in favour of the electorally more powerful, condemning the working class left to no representation for ever) - particularly for the bizarre electoral system in evidence in the Euro elections.

However you can’t have a meaningful ‘alliance’ with anyone who doesn’t want to. The Green Party has never shown any interest in electoral cooperation with the left, and doesn’t differentiate between Socialist Party councillors or Labour / Lib / Con in Lewisham or elsewhere. The Greens don’t want to work with Respect or anyone one else on the left, electorally, they want to bury you.

Comment by Jotta — 13 May, 2009 @ 9:54 am
#76
“Well let us put that to the test. Will the derisible labour vote be more or less derisible than the No2EU vote?

If call to vote lbaur are greated with drrision, then how should we judge perties that get less votes than labour?”

Andy I ‘m not saying that Labour will get a derisory vote. (Although I think it will be their worst vote nationally since the early 80’s.) I’m talking about what we, as a “left” are meant to say to voters in working class communities that have been ravaged by the policies of New Labour when we tell them not to vote BNP.

I personally would like to give them a positive, trade union backed, progressive opportunity to vote for a party that is opposed to the undemocratic nature of the EU whilst at the same time is against the racism and xenophobia of the far right.

I don’t expect No2EU to do particularly well however, if it takes votes from disaffected working class voters that would otherwise have gone to the BNP then I think it is doing it’s job.

For me the bigger picture is that despite its faults No2EU may be the start for something bigger and better in the future.

I don’t ascribe to the theory put forward that because No2EU is standing it will mean that there is a bigger chance the BNP will get elected in the NW. The situation is a lot more complex than simply saying that those who vote No2EU would have voted Green or Labour. There is an argument that No2EU presence on the ballot paper makes it more likely either the Greens or a 3rd Labour MEP would be elected.

Finally, of course Labour will get a bigger vote than any of the small parties. However that doesn’t mean you should never either stand against them or try and build new and progressive alternative.

When Keir Hardie stood against the Liberals he was told that he would split the vote and let the Tories get in. The fact is however Hardie et al recognised that the Liberal Party was not the vehicle to deliver the type of representation the working class needed. At that stage the priority amongst the left and progressives was to start something new.

We are at that stage now and if we don’t recognise that, then sooner rather than later the left will continue along its path into isolation and irrelevance whilst the far right sees it’s position strengthened.

Comment by unity - you know it makes sense — 13 May, 2009 @ 10:06 am
Agree wholeheartedly unity-you know it makes sense

Nice reference to James Keir Hardie

The fascists have already taken the initiative, if we don’t get ourselves sorted, the BNP will capitalise on the apathy towards bourgeois parties.

NO2EU represents a slate that ordinary working class voters can support, if they are pissed off with the European Union, without having to vote for the far-right.

Solidarity forever!

Comment by YCLer — 13 May, 2009 @ 10:48 am
Does tactical voting to keep the BNP out ever work? It seems to me we’ve had the same dance on this website every two years or so about who to vote for to keep the fascists out but the BNP has only become stronger while proper socialist initiatives have all been strangled at birth, partially due to this percieved need to vote tactically.

Comment by Martin Wisse — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:02 pm
Note: the above is no endorsement of either Respect/Greens or No2EU.

Comment by Martin Wisse — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:03 pm
#66 “They’re not really members of anything, they’re turned off by the ridiculous posturing of so much of the left, they want a political alternative but aren’t really looking to build one.”

Then why does George Galloway feel entitled to give an endorsement of Viva Palestina for the Greens? Perhaps I was right to think that the primary purpose of it was to enable Galloway’s ridculous posturing as Mr.Palestine.

“The amazing working class self-activity we saw when hundreds of people went to Gaza recently shows” that they didn’t have jobs to go to.
I was trying to find a clip from The Daily Show where Jon Stewart remarks that when the Obama administration is stumped for ideas its time for a roadtrip.

#59 Its your cynical, embittered hackery that I sometimes sum up. Is it you who also posts as “cynic”, or have you not quite reached that level of hypocrisy?

Comment by skidmarx — 13 May, 2009 @ 12:26 pm
When i stated previously that I thought the resignation of the Respect National Secretary and Treasurer (and previously the excellent past National Chair did not restand this year and the National membership officer has also recently stood down) was a crisis that was unacknowledged by the leadership I was challanged on this matter by others within the Respect NC on this site.

Now today we have this sad revelation without as far as I know any previous information being circulated or discussed (maybe this was not known to anyone until the last day or two?). This news doeos not look god for Respect in part of East London in the next election. It only confirms my opinion that Respect must make a clear decision where it is going for the next election - on its own (and into the wilderness) or at least attempt (even if we fail) to build a Left coalition/alliance with others:

http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/content/newham/recorder/news/story.aspx?brand=RECOnline&category=newsNEWHAM&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newsnewham&itemid=WeED13%20May%202009%2009%3A00%3A56%3A893

Councillors quit party
13 May 2009
RESPECT councillors Asif Karim and Hanif Abdulmuhit have quit the Newham party, it has emerged.

And as calls grow for them to resign their council seats, it can be revealed that their days in the party were numbered.

Local Party Chair Sabia Kamali said the men were tipped off informally “some time ago” that they would not be considered as candidates in next May’s council elections.

She alleged action was being taken as the pair were “not delivering services” to constituents.

She accused them of regularly failing to attend Town Hall meetings or advice surgeries.

And Newham’s ruling Labour Group have closed the door on them. “It would not be in the Group’s or Party’s interest to admit them,” said Group Chair Cllr Neil Wilson.

Cllrs Karim and Abdulmuhit, who represent Green Street West ward, confirmed their resignations from Respect, but said they would make no further comment at present.

Full story by Pat Coughtrey in this week’s Recorder

Comment by Neil Williams — 13 May, 2009 @ 1:00 pm
Manchester No2EU Election Meeting” on Monday, June 1 at 7:00pm.

Event: Manchester No2EU Election Meeting
What: Rally
Host: No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Start Time: Monday, June 1 at 7:00pm
End Time: Monday, June 1 at 9:00pm
Where: Mechanics Centre

To see more details and RSVP, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=96272657418&mid=748e50G27ad0193G19980deG7

Thanks,
The Facebook Team

Comment by No2EU — 13 May, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
# 89
I am surprised that this site or the Respect website has not any article on this crisis in Respect. Remmeber we were told it was going to be open and much more democratic. The evidence is that it is not. Respect is frankly on its last legs. The organisation has shrunk from its small post split numbers. It is rife with infighting and sectarianism. Viva Palestine was seen as its saviour and therefore was and is put forward as a Repsect front organisation. But any fool can tell you in the context of the crisis that Palestine is not enough. The fact that cllr’s are resigning, national officals quitting and in Bristol Respect are running on a main policy of wanting to have more police on the streets!!- supported by Andy of course, is a sign of decay and oppourtunism.

I am sure Andy will be posting an article about these developments!!! but then don’t hold your breath. If its not a slag off of the SWP then he doesn’t bother!!

Comment by ll — 13 May, 2009 @ 1:31 pm
That’s a bit Ad Hominem, II.

Bristol Respect touted one candidate for Lawrence Hill ward , who failed to get his nomnation papers in! There are plenty of good activists left in Respect (and in the SWP) but Respect candidates in Bristol (exept possibly Jerry Hicks) are only likely to let the Lib Dems in when we could have Greens elected.

Comment by green socialist — 13 May, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
#89 Well really, Neil. The Newham Recorder only came out this morning, according to the link, and I’m told NC members were immediately circulated. Doesn’t seem very secretive to me.

#91 As for a crisis in Respect, ll wishes. He and his organisation have done all that they can to kill off Respect and a less resilient organisation would have gone under by now. But I very much doubt that the disappearance of too useless and invisible councillors will make much difference. Interesting though that ll will be joining hands with New Labour in hoping against hope that this is the death knell.

The future of Respect in fact continues depend on what happens in 2010. Without a doubt Salma in Birmingham and Abjol Miah and George Galloway in Tower Hamlets are still in with a good and I think growing chance of being elected. For the left to get even one MP outside the Labour Party elected is something. For three to have a chance is incredible. No other organisation on the left outside Labour in England has any chance of electing an MP, including the SP despite Dave Nellist having been an excellent MP in the past and being an excellent councillor now.

That is the real measure of what Respect has achieved. And this is not something that those who purport to be on the left like ll but would like to destroy Respect or those who are just perpetually miserable about Respect can deny.

Comment by rachel trickett — 13 May, 2009 @ 3:29 pm
I just got back from leafleting in Salford and the campaign got a great responce. From many of the people I spoke to, who were very supportive of the campaign, they had said that they were not planning to vote.

This is not meant to be a sectarian comment, but to be perfectly honest, I doubt that many of the people who will vote NO2EU, would have otherwise voted Green. I am not against people voting Green, my girlfriend is certainly going to vote Green and I think thats great.

From working on this campaign in the North West, the places we have been leafleting, and the electorate we are targeting, I don’t think we are going to effect any potential Green voters. What we will do is bring out those who wouldn’t vote anyway, used to vote Labour, have voted UKIP, or even BNP.

NO2EU wasn’t about dissing the Greens, personally I wish them the highest possible vote, NO2EU is a different campaign, with a different core voter.

From working with HOPE NOT HATE in their campaign to get the anti-fascist vote out, I think NO2EU will help that tactic, I.E getting as many people to vote as possible to stop the BNP getting an MEP.

Comment by YCLer — 13 May, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
YCLer #94

Are you discounting he possiility of No2EU taking votes from labour, and thereby possible shifting the third labour MEP to a BNP one?

Comment by Andy Newman — 13 May, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
#93
Fair poitn Rachel
Lets see if you get 2 mps in the asr End, personally Galloway has not got a hope. Salma is a good electoRal condidate with a real base, so we will see. Will be interesting to see whta happens to Respect if it fails to get any MP’s…………..??? If Andy’s anything to go by it all heading towards New Labour.

#92 The fact that the Respect candidate was in a local paper saying he was the Respect candidate and his no 1 issue was getting more police on the streets and this is supported by nat exec members like Andy is enough evidence of the political shift to the right in Respect. Calling for the police to be on our streets is a policy of the Tories. By the way another national exec member cals for LOcal Govt workers to be sacked in Haringay council over the baby p case. This is the leadership of Respect. VIVA Palestine which I see is simply being used for Respect is not enough to get the votes required. Respect did nothing over Visteon but wet themselves over BJ4BW’s… populist and rightward moving.

Comment by ll — 13 May, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
skidmarx: ‘Then why does George Galloway feel entitled to give an endorsement of Viva Palestina for the Greens? Perhaps I was right to think that the primary purpose of it was to enable Galloway’s ridculous posturing as Mr.Palestine.’ You’re getting really vile now. I think even Galloway’s worst opponents would recognize that his three decade commitment to Palestine is genuine. Your obsessive behaviour looks very much like stalking.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
YCLer,
Well done, sounds like you’ve done a great day’s work up there, but we don’t have to justify ourselves to the greens mate.
If someone comes up and says they were thinking of voting Green, I’d say: “Well vote NO2EU instead,” and have that discussion with them.
I wouldn’t say: “Oooh no, better keep voting Green or Andy and the liberals might get upset.” (I’m not suggesting you’re saying that comrade, but just don’t let these euro-comms get you with their pathetic attempts at emotional blackmail that’s all - you’re doing a great job by the sounds of it and good on you!)

Andy, your whole mindset is wrong and you treat the electorate like brainless morons. It’s not for any of the parties to make such calculations about dividing up people’s votes between them - real life just doesn’t work like that.

In NO2EU, we’ll try as hard as we can to persuade each person we speak to to vote for our platform.

And, if a former Green, Labour, LibDem, UKIP, Tory or BNP voter comes over to NO2EU, it’s because THAT INDIVIDUAL has decided to support our policies. It’s not because we’ve “stolen” a hapless voter who can’t think for herself.

If you’re going to stand a candidate, or campaign for a candidate, do it because it’s something you believe in and fight your corner - don’t play these “oh-so-clever” mathematical games, you’ll just come over as confusing and unprincipled.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:06 pm
Karl: isn’t the problem with all of this the ‘C’ factor, credibility? I just don’t see how NO2EU will be considered credible in the eyes of voters. That’s going to be reflected, as far as I can see, in its vote. Take Bob Crow, for example. He’s a very credible union leader. But Britain is a very different place from the 1970’s when General Council figures were household names - and not just them: Red Robbo. It’s different from the 1980’s and 1990’s when Arthur Scargill was recognised by everyone in the country.

I fear that too much of the left deludes iteself into thinking that because it has heard of Bob Crow and likes him, then so do a substantial number of working class people. I don’t see the evidence for that. Nor do I see the evidence for NO2EU being a credible electoral intervention.

Nick Wright made a much more nuanced point above, recognising that there is inherent flexibility in electoral tactics. That is preferable, imho, to inflating differences of approach to clash between different social classes - ‘working class politics’ v ‘middle class liberals’. That’s especially so as the proclaimed working class political force will be measured at the ballot box.

And the vote for things like this matters. A poor vote is damaging. A very poor vote could even lead to a backlash in the RMT from those who want it to move back to a closer relationship to Labour.

A little less tub-thumping is in order all round.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:36 pm
#97 You’ve been quite vile for a while. When Viva Palestina was launched , those questioning the motivation were told that people like Michael Lavalette were supporting it, so it must be a non-sectarian initiative. Yet now Galloway feels entitled to use it to support a Green candidate in the Euro elections. Can you really not see the contradiction? Or that the convoy was supposed to break open the blockade by shaming the Egyptian government out of their collaboration with the Israelis in maintaining the siege at Rafah, while in the end Galloway allowed himself to beincorporated by the Egyptian government,the convoy went through only under the Israelis conditions, and the siege remains?

I’m not suggesting that Galloway’s commitment to Palestine is ingenuous. I’m just asking if the way he has publicised his involvement has more to do with trying to resurrect a political movement in this country that is dead in the water, and whether his metods do most to help the Palestinians. I don’t even have any pesonal animus, it is the abuse from his supporters here that has done most to encourage me to keep questioning his record.

Comment by skidmarx — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:37 pm
neil williams: In terms of the next general election - who do you think has a chance of being elected from the left?

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:40 pm
#98

How is it “confusing and unprincipled” to urge people to cast a vote that will be effective in stopping the BNP winning an MEP?

Comment by Andy Newman — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
Andy, the logical conclusion from your argument would see everyone bar the Tories - who opinion polls put in the lead - standing down.
I think people vote according to who they actually support, not on the basis of smartarse tactical equations.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
The political significance of the No2EU campaign is perhaps more complex than Karl Stewart’s enthusiastic advocacy suggests.

It is not a campaign for a new workers’ party – although the arguments for recovering or reconstructing such a party are becoming more compelling – it is a one-off election vehicle that presents a working class political alternative in this particular election.

In a ballot box the political history of each vote is irrelevant. Elections are always more complex than the raw voting figures suggest. Votes come and go from every direction. In fact, unless the left can win working class votes that might go straight from Labour or abstention to the BNP etc its campaign is, by definition, failing.

No2EU is bang on target in aiming at such working class voters. Labour loyalists need to understand that for many people voting Labour is already a “wasted vote”.

There is a danger in making a fetish out of the need to prevent the BNP being elected if this means downplaying politics. In more representative proportional voting systems it is inevitable that they will win some seats. This changes the context so that the issue becomes how well they represent the people who voted for them. The evidence in this country, in France as successive reports in Searchlight show, is that the far right is sometimes easier to expose in office than out. In fact much of the ‘holier than thou’ bi-partisan anti racist rhetoric by capitalist consensus parties adds somewhat to the BNP’s attraction to some alienated voters.

But No2EU is not simply a device for diverting potential fascist votes. It is a campaign against the main collective instrument of the European capitalist class and the principal strategy of that class. Confused thinking about the exact nature of the EU – whether it comes from time-warp trotskyists who haven’t caught up or warmed-over euro communist relics – really reflects petit-bourgoeis pressure on the working class movement.

Comment by Nick Wright — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
skidmarx: ‘while in the end Galloway allowed himself to beincorporated by the Egyptian government,the convoy went through only under the Israelis conditions, and the siege remains’.

You’re such a filthy liar. Three people hostpitalized in Al Arish; a confrontation with the state security forces; the refusal of the Egyptian authorities to let the convoy in which it relented from only when pressure was buildingon the border - all this is being incorporated by the Eyptian government!

You’re brain has become addled by sectarian animus. I refuse to accept that you are in any way typical of SWP members.

Meanwhile, 1,000 people at a meeting in Birmingham raised £26,000 for the Viva Palestina campaign in Birmingham on Sunday; another couple of hundred in Manchester - including the Green MEP candidate; and 300 in Bradford. All this is just about Galloway’s ego is it? Come off it. Your insults don’t even make sense - Galloway is simulataneously trying to be Mr Palestine and build a political career while, er, supporting the candidate of another party!?

Why don’t you stop polluting what can be interesting discussions here.

Nick Wright: I understand your argument and it’s entirely coherent. But I don’t share the view that the EU is the main driver of neo-liberalism in Britain or that people will vote on the issue of Europe. It seems to me that popular outrage is at the bankers and Westminster. Surely a political platform aimed at giving a left expression to that would be preferable to singling out the EU?

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:16 pm
London (National) No2EU Election Rally

“Vote YES to Democracy on June 4!”
What: Rally
Host: No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Start Time: Monday, June 1 at 7:00pm
End Time: Monday, June 1 at 9:00pm
Where: Friends Meeting House (Main Hall)

To see more details and RSVP, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=78109227708&mid=74e4ffG27ad0193G199fd36G7

Thanks,
The Facebook Team

Comment by No2EU — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
re 105 Ferrier
The argument is not that ‘the EU is the main driver of neo-liberalism’. It is that the EU – its unaccountable decision making institutions, ‘psuedo-democratic’ window dressing, military pretensions, corrupt payment procedures and expense scams – is the actual instrument of big business and the banks.

I am bemused by the suggestion that although our rulers have constructed a supra-national state apparatus that is even more difficult to assault than the ones they carefully nurture within their own borders we should treat it more benignly.

Neo-liberal policies arise from the need for capital to find even more sources of profit. In the context of developed capitalist states in Europe this means privatisation and a deregulated labour market. And the EU is the instrument they have fashioned to meet these objectives.

Of course states outside the EU pursue privatisiation etc. They have to in order to compete in the global capitalist market. This does not diminish the importance for capitalist classes in the major EU countries of the EU. In fact it is the mechanism whereby they are able to compete more effectively. That explains why as EU trade commissioner Mandelson, for example, sometimes expressed criticism of US dominated global institutions.

You can hardly criticise No2EU for ’singling out the EU’. It is, after all, the election of Members of the European Parliament.
(Actually it is the parliament of the European Union - the continent of Europe is a different thing altogether.) If people choose to use their vote in this election to express their disgust at political corruption then there is no better dstination for their vote than No2EU.

Comment by Nick Wright — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
“I understand your argument and it’s entirely coherent. But I don’t share the view that the EU is the main driver of neo-liberalism in Britain or that people will vote on the issue of Europe. It seems to me that popular outrage is at the bankers and Westminster. Surely a political platform aimed at giving a left expression to that would be preferable to singling out the EU?”

Ferrier, This is a comment that I have heard from a few people in regards to NO2EU, But surely whether or not you think that the EU is the main driver of Neo-liberalism, it is a EUROPEAN ELECTION.

I would agree that it was the people in Westminster that are privatising the Post Office….etc,however, I would argue that the Neoliberal agenda that the European Union pushes is significant in driving the government in Westminster to carry out privatisation.

I am all for a campaign that can vent people’s frustration at our government in Westminster and the Bankers at home, but as it is a european election, the issue is what you think about the European Union.

Voting NO2EU, is not saying that our government is better than the EU, in terms of it’s dedication to Neoliberalism, but it is saying that the European union is committed to Neo-liberalism. As the European Union is so undemocratic, there is no real way that people can prevent the EU from seeking institutionalise Thatcherism.

The message NO2EU sends out is a demand for a more democratic EU, so we can prevent the privatisation agenda that it is committed to.

I would agree wholeheartedly that our national government is a neo-liberal one, but this is a European election, however, at a national election I will certainly be with you in condemnation of our government and the bankers in this country.

Comment by YCLer — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
Nick Wright: I understand all that. But I don’t see any evidence that people will cast a left vote in these elections with the European Union uppermost in their minds. It seems to me that the European Union has less impact on the decision-making of the British government than the City of London - also unaccountable and without even pseudo-democratic window dressing. I don’t have a benign attitude to the EU and its bureaucracies. It’s just that I think the constraints on pursuing progressive policies in Britain are close to home.

Take public spending deficits, for example. The unelected governor of the Bank of England and the threat of a run on the pound have had far more to do with curbing further fiscal stimulus than the Maastricht criteria, which have been merrily breached in every EU country. For sure, the EU is an instrument for big business. But British-based big business has a number of instruments. Including the unelected elements of the British state, which already has an army engaged in imperialist adventures abroad.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
108 ferrier

You are right in pointing out that ‘British-based big business has a number of instruments. Including the unelected elements of the British state, which already has an army engaged in imperialist adventures abroad.’

In fact Britain has a different relationship to the EU to other big European capitalist powers both because of the global reach of British capital (and the military machine to match this – a burden other EU countries have avoided ) but also because of the peculiar relationship with US capital. A big section of UScapital (and the elements of british capital most integrated with it) ascribe to Britain a mediating role in the EU between these contradictory interests.

This accounts, in part, for the divisions within the Tory party which reflect these competing priorities.

However, it is not possible to pose the City against the EU as if they represent distinct interests. Both contain contradictory pressures.

Illusions about the EU are a key element in maintaining right wing and social democratic control in the labour movement. From the time when Jacques Delors spoke at the TUC until now ‘labour lieutenants of capital’ extoll the ’social Europe’ as an alternative to militant action by British workers. It is a measure of the depth of the capitalist crisis that this argument has lost much of its force. But we still find traces of it in ultra left and revisionist thinking.

Comment by Nick Wright — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:08 pm
Nick: I agree with all of that. I well remember Jacques Delors speech and the debate on the left at the time. But isn’t it an indication of how bad things have got for the left and the movement in this country that Britain has been characterised since 1988 not by a strong working class movement underpinning a social democratic welfare state, but by the longest working hours in Europe, the most advance neo-liberal offensive, an almost unique level of destruction of manufacturing, and anti-union laws that are the most draconian in the OECD?

Under Thatcher, Major and Blair we had administrations which set themselves the task of introducing Chicago economics or some other crackpot theory into mainland Europe. The picture is almost the exact reverse of 1975 when Britain had the strongest working class movement in the world.

In no sense would I counterpose the City to the EU, and I think your description of the relationship of Britain to EU and US capital is correct, and admirably succinct. It’s just that I think in fact and in popular consciouness the main targets we should be going for are in Britain, not Brussels.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:16 pm
skidmarx: just noted this little pellet from you - ‘“The amazing working class self-activity we saw when hundreds of people went to Gaza recently shows” that they didn’t have jobs to go to.’

What an anti-working class shit you are. All those people who took time off work, on unpaid leave, to get involved in an act of international solidarity get the same treatment from you as from the Daily Express, ‘Haven’t you go jobs to go to?’ Truly vile. And thankfully nothing to do with the SWP.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:34 pm
Since 1975 things for the left have certainly worsened.
I am not sure that Britain had the strongest working class movement in the world. That was surely where the capitalist class no longer exercised state power.

Because capitalist power is unchallenged at the level of the state throughout Europe assaults on the social democratic consensus can succeed more easily.

I don’t think you can describe Chicago economics as ‘crackpot’. It had the precise purpose of destroying the remaining barriers to the unchallenged drive for profits.

No2EU is not going for’ Brussels’ as a target. That is the rhetoric of UKIP, Tebbit and the like.

The target is the chosen strategy of the most reactionary section of British capital. The targets are thos class interests that are served by candidates and parties who support the policies that are enforced by Britain’s integration in the structures of the EU. The EU is not in Brussels it is in the ruling circles of every member state.

Comment by Nick Wright — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:34 pm
But, Nick - it’s called NO2EU. It’s not called Bollocks to the Bankers or People not Profit or No to Privatisation or somesuch.

Let’s leave aside the question of the class nature of the actually existing socialist bloc. We can certainly agree that the British working class was the strongest in the indisputably capitalist world. The decline to where we have now must surely impact on the nature of the argument over the EU. The left was marginal to the no campaign in 1975. It is even more marginal over opposition to the EU now. Not to say the position is wrong, but the relative balance is not an incidental factor.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:38 pm
“neil williams: In terms of the next general election - who do you think has a chance of being elected from the left?

Comment by Ferrier”

In my opinion for what its worth I think Salma Yaqoob, who is also the nominated leader of Respect stands by far the best chance.A lot of work has been dome at local level and on Birmingham Council about local issues in a consistent way by Salma nd other Respect Councillors along with Respect members in Birmingham.We should all help this campaign next year as I will do.

It is why i wish to see Respect part of a coalition/alliance for the next election so that as much of the “Left” as possible work for her victory. Multiple campaigns in other parts of the country other than the East End of London would ditract and take away resouces. Winning in Birmingham or anywhere will take a lot of work - far more than most people realise(I will never underestimate the resources New Labour and the Liberals after my experaince in Luton in the last two elections).

The news from Newham today is very sad as we have now lost Respect Councillors in both Tower Hamlets and Newham not in elections but by defection. It is bound to have an impact on any Respect campaign in East London where both seats will be hard for Respect to win but not impossible now that New Labour is so unpopuler and the votes possibly splitting four ways.

Comment by Neil Williams — 13 May, 2009 @ 6:41 pm
Neil and Ferrier,
So what would you say is the fundamental difference between those of you in Respect who don’t support NO2EU and are backing the Green Party and the Green Party itself?

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:03 pm
Skidmarx: ‘“The amazing working class self-activity we saw when hundreds of people went to Gaza recently shows” that they didn’t have jobs to go to.’

Like ferrier above I find that an astonishing statement from anyone who claims to be on the Left, and I for one would want to utterly dissociate myself from it.

Firstly, some working people have a little thing called LEAVE. They may actually have been bothered enough about palestine to use some. In some cases they will have negotiated UNPAID LEAVE. That means they’re really really bothered about Palestine. Fair play to ‘em.

Secondly (and the main pont here), it’s worth noting that a fair few of the people who went on the convoy were Muslims. Now the thing about Muslims, is they have to put up with a thing called RACISM (look it up). One of the effects of racism is that it leads to people being disproportionately UNEMPLOYED, because employers see the brown skin and think ‘nah, funny ideas this lot, I’ll take on someone else’.

Now it has generally been accepted on the Left (that’s OUR side..) that we stand WITH the people who suffer racism, and AGAINST the racists. On that basis i think that you should either retract that statement and apologise, or basically fuck off and die.

Oh and you don’t speak for any SWP member worth their salt, that’s for sure.

Comment by swp member — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:12 pm
That did seem pretty shitty. I was wondering if I could have misunderstood it, but I don’t see how.

Comment by KrisS — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:15 pm
Aside from anything else I think the convoy was undoubtably an excellent initiative. Even if it did not ‘end the occupation’ (??).

Comment by johng — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
No answer from the Respecters then.
What about the SWP, who are you guys backing in the euro-elections?

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
‘That did seem pretty shitty’

Well that’s what causes skidmarks..

Comment by swp member — 13 May, 2009 @ 7:45 pm
At the moment, Karl, I’m wishing you all the best and concentrating on UAF work, as far as the elections go. And getting on with everything else as well of course.

Comment by KrisS — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:03 pm
Well good luck with the UAF stuff Kris.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:19 pm
“Neil and Ferrier,
So what would you say is the fundamental difference between those of you in Respect who don’t support NO2EU and are backing the Green Party and the Green Party itself?”

Karl its not for me to answer is it as I do support the No2EU campaign. What is strange is that the National Chair of Respect writes to the Independent (”Respect in the North West says unite red and green to stop the BNP”) explaining why we are sopporting the Greens in the North West (an arrangement made prior to the formation of No2EU and one most people would understand even if they did not agree)and George also lends his support but we have seen no statements of support, no letters to the press and no pictures (not even one of George and Nick Wrack (standing for No2EU in London)of George and or Kay Phillips with Bob Crow supporting No2EU outside the North West. If this was done I feel that there would be more unity over this issue.

It seems most odd to me that Tommy Sheridan and Solidarity are prepeared to support No2EU at National level(not by individuals or individaul branches or regions) but our Respect MP and National Respect Chair are not prepared to do so - so far(putting the North West to one side which i think most peoople including the No2EU campaign would understand).

Comment by Neil Williams — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:21 pm
Thanks for that Neil and apologies for misunderstanding your position re NO2EU.
How many - ie what proportion of the members - Respecters would you say back NO2EU as you do?
And how do you see the differing perspectives within the party working out?

Comment by Karl Stewart — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:36 pm
Neil Williams: Peter Cranie might win a seat and alter the outcome of the election in the North West. NO2EU can do that nowhere.

You say Salma has a chance (you mention no one else) at the general election. What conclusion should be drawn from that? I don’t see how encouraging a lot of lost deposits elsewhere helps. A few, maybe, but surely the left has an interest in those candidates with a chane (I’d include Tower Hamlets) winning? Hard choices flow from a positive answer, at least for Respect.

Comment by Ferrier — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:38 pm
#114 I have to say I am getting just a little hacked off by Neil Williams’ pontificating about what he has no direct knowledge of. As a matter of information the two councillors have not “defected”. Labour don’t want them, perfectly understandably given their track record. The Lib Dems are all but dead in East London, so joining them would be an act of necrophilia. And as for the Tories, they don’t have any councillors in Newham and they won’t after the next election either I would wager a small bet.

This is not to say it is not unfortunate that they have resigned but these have been testing times. A number of councillors have been tested and found wanting. Personally, I think that says a huge amount about the quality of the councillors who have stuck with Respect through all the rubbish, the six in Tower Hamlets, one in Newham and three in Birmingham, ten in total which is still rather more than any other organisation on the left, outside the Greens, I would guess.

Neil’s comments are implicitly denigrating of the efforts of the Tower Hamlets councillors and of George Galloway and of the possibilities of success in Tower Hamlets in 2010. I am not for a moment saying it is not going to be tough. Of course it is given what Respect has gone through.

But it is above all because of George Galloway’s resilience and his huge reputation outside the circles of the sectarian left which still gives Respect a chance of not one, not two but three MPs. I really do think it is time Neil stopped sniping from his redoubt up the M1 and made a rather more positive contribution to Respect.

Comment by vladimir antonov-ovseenko — 13 May, 2009 @ 8:40 pm
Neil
The reason this has happen in the north west is no more complicated than we just used what opportunities we had to push this particular policy.

Please get you facts right though.

The report in the Independent was as a result of the efforts of the Green Party press office. Kay wrote to The Observer following the piece they did on the BNP, but they didn’t published the letter, but I posted this on Liam’s blog.

An email was sent out regarding the north west position after the Independent article, plus posted on the national website. The same piece has been on the Manchester website for 2 months prior to this, plus published in the last Respect newspaper.

As regard the photo, we took the opportunity of having George in Manchester to do a photo with Peter, who travelled from Liverpool to take part.

As regards to the notion you put forward that some how there’s a reluctance to do the same in London with regard to No2EU I would dispute this.

The people in London just have get their act together and get it organised. They could use a telephone, its not rocket science.

Reading some kind of conspiracy into this is nonsense

Comment by Richard Searle — 13 May, 2009 @ 9:06 pm
#111 “Truly vile. And thankfully nothing to do with the SWP.”

Sadly Skidmarx has boasted that he rejoined the SWP last year. But I fully accept that he, and the dreadful ll, speak only for themselves and do not represent mainstream opinion in the SWP.

Comment by Andy Newman — 14 May, 2009 @ 9:18 am
Although I still do think that the original article and the use of the pic suggest and endorsement from Viva Palestina, I would like to disassociate myself from the other comments by skidmarx and others about George Galloway.

Comment by Jim Monaghan — 14 May, 2009 @ 10:55 am
George Galloway is frightened to take on the BNP,he doesnt want to combine his votes with the green party.Every time he has come up against the BNP they have always had far more votes than the respect party.He is frightened they will be thrashed by the BNP.He will use all the dirty tricks in the book.I recommend the voters should not be influenced by this little man with a big ego and vote the way they intended

BAZ

Comment by baz — 14 May, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
Sorry, Baz above was me, posting through my Skidmarx filter.

Comment by external bulletin — 14 May, 2009 @ 5:51 pm
(only joking)

Comment by external bulletin — 14 May, 2009 @ 5:51 pm
The UK working class electorate do no recognise class politics at present. You may disagree, but if they did then No2EU would have the British working class marching to their thousands in support of them come June. However, there is a problem with the political programme, the electoral strategy and their general attitude. The fact that supporters of this left-wing nationalist chauvinist initiative would rather not vote than vote for a committed anti-fascist suggests the pure sectarianism and old-school hostility some of this old guard have in regards to the new political landscape.

I commend George Galloway and Respect for recognising the most suitable alternative to vote for. The Greens have had the organisation and ground work in place alot longer than No2EU has. The fact that No2EU has come along, with only a few months until the election expecting to capitalise on xenophobic Euroscepticism from a reactionary layer of the UK working class is digusting, and all supporters should be ashamed of this. In terms of political slogans and the message which is coming across in the press, No2EU is attempting to cash in on the same space the BNP occupies at present: xenophobic Euroscepticism that borders on racism, despite whatever internal wash you wish to put on that, the message of anti-racism, internationalism etc. does not resonate with the working class votes No2EU is attempting to reach.

In these elections a strong Green vote is required, because only the Greens have put in the effort, have worked on the right manifesto to truely deliever for all sections of Britain’s working-poor.

And as a cheeky hint of what the Greens could expect in the next couple of weeks: my understanding is a few of the bigwigs down at The Guardian (yeah, bring on the attacks) are considering to publically come out in favour of the Greens for the Euro elections. So don’t be surprised if Milne, Toynbee et al start harking at ‘protest’ votes for the Greens’ cleaner politics. You’ve heard it here first folks!

Comment by Cohen — 14 May, 2009 @ 8:48 pm
Wow!

Comment by KrisS — 14 May, 2009 @ 9:11 pm
I think many should be concerned about Respect’s use of viva palestinia as a front to project itself and then use it to cuddle up the green party. The sectarian nature of Respect in terms of palestine is staggering, they parade as if only they care and then use a so called campiagn to back its organisation.. shameful. I understand many in the manchester area are also concerned about Respect’s behaviour

Comment by ll — 14 May, 2009 @ 9:47 pm
“I understand…” No you don’t ll. You understand nothing and your pathetic bilge repeatedly proves beyond doubt.

Thankfully you represent nothing but yourself. Remember though, it’s not the lies you tell others that are so poisonous but the lies you tell yourself.

Comment by TLC — 14 May, 2009 @ 10:00 pm
#137 is gibberish. I don’t support NO2EU. Electoral alliances always end in tears but if your advocating a vote for the Greens then maybe you should justify that advocacy. The Greens I’ve came across are often very nice middle class people but they don’t tend to know a lot about what you contemptuously refer to as “class politics” and when you scratch their veneer you often find quite right wing views.

Comment by Jim — 14 May, 2009 @ 10:21 pm
At our last conference a motion was passed committing the party to working with other individuals and organisations to put forward a left wing challenge at elections. In the NW an agreement was made with the Greens. Fine. When no2eu came onto the scene comrades worked to get respect members on their list. This was a step forward as it placed respect firmly in the camp with the organised working class. Unfortunately the NC voted against the motion to support no2eu nationally. The motion to allow regions to decide for themselves simply fudged the issue and undermined the NC as the decision making body of the party. At the time the resignations of the NC members from their posts was seen by some as unnecessary or an overreaction.

The motivation behind the successful motion is now becoming clear- the party leader has decided to back a non socialist party in preference to the TU led no2eu campaign in the Euro elections.
Can respect recover from this and play a part in any subsequent realignment of the left?

Comment by paulv (TH Respect) — 14 May, 2009 @ 10:41 pm
#137 If the class politics you speak about is just rehashed from the 1980s then forget about it. Most Greens I’ve come across are infact very advanced in class politics and realise the new playground class politics finds itself in.

I think many on here have justified the reasons to support the Greens. The fact they have an organisation and a genuine political programme that extends beyond petty Euroscepticism and encompasses the possible benefits of taking up seats and winning battles sets it far apart from NO2EU who can’t even make up their mind if they will take up seats (perhaps jumping the gun a bit).

They then expect the Greens to take into account that a progressive working class political alliance is standing in the Euro elections, however the influence extends little beyond one trade union and a couple of Socialist Party councillors in the mix. It is pathetic and should be admitted as such. It’s nothing grand, it’s supporters admit openly that they intend to take votes off the xenophobic working class that seeks to support the BNP.

The Greens are attempting to build a progressive alliance in the North West, to reach out to those who may not have considered voting, rather than those who just wish to vote for anything Eurosceptic regardless of the wider progressive policies. That is a fact, and cannot be disputed. The Greens have been hard at it for eighteen months. NO2EU cannot appreciate the effort that goes into grassroots electoral challenges. They just have not fathomed that. They have failed in recognising what they’re up against and expect every other progressive to jump on board.

Yes my words seem vile. But I am angry, as indeed are many other progressives (from those both involved in party politics and not). There is a section of very influential progressive voices out there who have friends and networks in certain areas and who need to be convinced by the political programme to be able to commit to it, and NO2EU has not convinced this section. The effort in reaching out to this block has been passed off given the hostility NO2EU organisers and supporters have towards anyone who recognises themselves as a ‘progressive’ rather than an out and out ’socialist.’ As such, they have alienated a perhaps sympathetic section who feels better placed in supporting other alternatives to the mainstream, and whose job it is perhaps to write upon and attempt to influence through their respective channels.

I will appreciate all attacks I recieve hence forth.

Comment by Cohen — 14 May, 2009 @ 11:02 pm
#132 Actually, skidmarx complained (rather than boasted) that he was asked to join at an SWP meeting last year. He didn’t, and he isn’t a member.

Comment by chjh — 14 May, 2009 @ 11:07 pm
Hey Cohen (137),
Why are you so excited about a rumour that some columnists at the soft-left middle-class liberal Guardian might come out in support of the soft-left middle-class liberal Green Party?
“Liberals back liberals” where’s the surprise in that?
As I say to all you namby-pamby liberal types, good luck, keep doing what you’re doing no-one’s trying to stop you.
We’ll keep on with our separate work of trying to build a serious working-class political alternative and no-one’s going to stop us.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 14 May, 2009 @ 11:15 pm
Cohen, just seen your post at (143),you certainly love that word “progressive” don’t you?
Is it the new buzz word for today’s new “euro-comms”?
You really hate the idea of working-class people thinking and organising politically for ourselves don’t you?
We really don’t need you middle-class liberals to tell us what to do Cohen.

Comment by Karl Stewart — 14 May, 2009 @ 11:30 pm
See Peter’s sensible comment in the comment section of this piece.

greensengage.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/prospective-mep-candidate-peter-cranie-vote-green-to-keep-the-bnp-out/

Comment by me again — 15 May, 2009 @ 12:27 am
“The motivation behind the successful motion is now becoming clear- the party leader has decided to back a non socialist party in preference to the TU led no2eu campaign in the Euro elections.”

You’re in TH Respect? None of us can place you.

Secondly, the counter-motion was put once it was clear that Nick was intending to push this to a vote, when no such vote was needed. Nick hadn’t responded to attempts to discuss the matter of the previously agreed support by NW Respect for the Greens, he never told anyone that he was trying to get himself on the No2EU list, and his motion was clearly designed not to allow anyone else to do anything else. A number of people - not least in London - felt that this was too restrictive and that scope needed to be give to other regions to make their own decisions. Most of the Respect activists who expressed an opinion came to the conclusion that this was yet another unrepresentative action that didn’t reflect what the people on the ground actually felt.

Galloway’s opinions had nothing to do with this.

However, you seem to be a conspiracy believer, which is what makes me doubt your credibility. You seem to think that a motion was put just to underscore some decision by Galloway, when it’s the last thing on anyone’s mind.

A shame that you’ve gone over to that political method. Can’t you be more constructive? Certainly, you spend plenty of time on here, and I agree with most of what you say - but rather than be conspiratorial and weep for Respect, couldn’t you work with the activists in TH Respect - including those who just put on a 200-strong meeting - to discuss how best to support organisations like No2EU in the election?

Comment by external bulletin — 15 May, 2009 @ 12:51 am
#146 I’m hardly discerning of being labelled ‘middle class.”Progressive’ far from being a buzzword, is the word for the mainstream centre-left, those who aren’t all blue sky thinking. The working class should not be patronised to by continually suggesting the narrow approach which they no longer recognise with. Neither should they be held in esteem as being the only vehicle for social change. To assume such is ignorant and dogmatic.

You know nothing of my class background, and besides, are you saying that anybody who does come from a middle class background is incapable of recognising class struggle? That once again seems ingorant and dogmatic. It is entirely possible for those from a middle-class background to adopt socialist sympathies, in exactly the same way it is possible for someone from a working class background to adopt fascist sympathies. I can’t see how class should affect those sympathies, especially in the here and now.

For the record however, my mother’s father was a militant activist with the United Farm Workers (UFW) where he was involved in some of the harshest civil rights and union struggles of the twentieth century. He was involved in a union that was betrayed by the urban industrial unions who had no interest in class unity, and instead sought to undermine that struggle by breaking the contracts the UFW established with the Californian grape growers, because those agricultural workers were Latinos who weren’t considered to be quite of the same class as the teamsters. So excuse my if I lack a certain sympathy with sections of the working class. The UFW happened to recieve a fair ammount of sympathy for their struggles from a large section of Democrats and middle-class liberals who supported the boycotts, yes they had conflicting interests, but they were able to gain results with building a coalition with consumers, liberals and Democrats. Unfortunately a large number of trade unions were hostile and decided to side with agribusiness.

Comment by Cohen — 15 May, 2009 @ 12:54 am
I agree with Cohen’s analysis of the situation and I am completely put off by what seems as out of date and shocking stances taken by people on here. I am a Green Party member, and believe enough in the party and its politics to stand as a candidate for them in elections, I am also working-class and I am a committed socialist. The reason why this socialist is in the Greens because it is a party firmly in the libertarian left.

What I have seen from people on here is a complete attack on Greens for being ‘liberal’, ‘bourgeois’ and ‘middle-class’. No Green is for neoliberal economics and all want a sustainable and socially just economy. Bourgeois? I’ll tell you what is bourgeois: war, attacks on the poor, greed, and destruction of the environment in the pursuit of profit. Greens are completely against that. Middle-class? There are many definitions of class. Just because someone has more money or was born in to a comfortable lifestyle, doesn’t make them any less of an ally. Are you going to tell Tony Benn to eff off or what?

I completely believe that any sort of socialist revolution will come from empowered people, will be grassroots and democratic. No2Eu is surely the antithesis of this. It is appealing to reactionary nationalist sentiment which Greens are against; what about internationalism? Where have the grassroots of the RMT been in this whole thing? This seems knee-jerk and the fundamental issue of whether people are taking their seats or not has left me horrified. To abstain from the European Parliament would be a complete injustice to people who you say you are meant to be representing the interests of. I’d take a Jean Lambert or a Caroline Lucas anyday over that. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

The comment that someone made saying that if it wasn’t for no2eu standing, they wouldn’t even vote in the NW region is just beyond belief. You would, as a socialist, rather not vote for a dedicated anti-fascist and anti-racist like Peter Cranie and risk Nick Griffin getting elected?

Just some of my thoughts as a young socialist who feels completely alienated with the attitudes of people on here.

Comment by Aaron — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:19 am
Cohen, your personal details are none of my business, but your politics are middle class and liberal.
The working class has the power to overthrow capitalism and become the ruling class and there are tens of millions of us in the UK, so we do not need “progressive alliances.”

Comment by Karl Stewart — 15 May, 2009 @ 5:22 am
#149

I wasn’t refering to Galloway. It’s worse I’m affraid.

Comment by paulv — 15 May, 2009 @ 8:42 am
‘The motivation behind the successful motion is now becoming clear- the party leader has decided to back a non socialist party in preference to the TU led no2eu campaign in the Euro elections.’

Jeez, reads like some elaborate conspiracy that’s been unearthed. The reality, of course, is more boring.

In the West Midlands and North West, some of us happen to think the fight against the BNP is the most critical issue in the Euro’s and want to support the candidate best placed to unequivocally wage that fight. It’s been a really tough one, but after days of deliberation and anxiety we concluded that a candidate standing under the slogan of ‘No to racism’ might just convey a stronger anti-racist message than a candidate standing under the slogan ‘NO2EU’.

Comment by Ger Francis — 15 May, 2009 @ 9:40 am
Also. No2EU is not a socialist campaign. It contains socialists in its list of candidates, but the platform it stands on is specifically not socialist

Comment by Steve — 15 May, 2009 @ 9:48 am
#142 Paulv may be a member of Tower Hamlets Respect for all I know, but his logic is distinctly dodgy and his outlook paranoid. The facts are these. The Respect National Council can make any decision it wishes. In this case it made a decision to prioritise trying to maximise Respect’s effectiveness in the 2010 elections, not endorse any other organisation nationally where it was not standing in the 2009 elections as has been its tradition and allow people regionally to decide if they wish to endorse another party, thus retrospectively endorsing North West Respect’s right to back the Greens. George Galloway has nowhere given an endorsement to the Greens generally. He was asked to endorse the Green candidate in the North West and in line with the policy in that region he has done so.

I am not going to suggest for one moment that Nick Wrack’s motivation in moving his motion at the NC was that he wanted to stand on the No2EU list in London. That would be an equally silly inference to make. The motion passed by the NC sepcifically endorsed the fact that members were at liberty to support and even stand on lists such as No2EU. It specifically recognised there would be progressive canddiates standing for No2EU (as well as the Greens and it really is bizarrely sectarian to suggest that all Green candidates are, presumably objectively, anti-working class). For the record, Councillor Abjol Miah, who is the candidate for Respect for Bethnal Green and Bow, exchanged phone numbers with Bob Crow when he spoke alongside him at the Olympics picket the other day, and offered to arrange to take him round parts of Tower Hamlets to boost his campaign. This is hardly an indication of hostility to No2EU.

Once again we have people pontificating about matters and claiming bad faith, where there knowledge is either very limited or they are downright wrong. That is what undermines the National Council, not abiding by its decisions.

I also think some people need to get a sense of proportion about No2EU. The fact is that Mark Serwotka and the PCS, Matt Wrack and the FBU and Billy Hayes and the CWU have not come on board even though attempts were made to get them on board. An electoral combination of the RMT leadership, the CPB and the SP (plus some other people) is not insignificant but it is a limited development. It also includes some people, particularly those associated with the Leeds-based Alliance for Green Socialism, who have taken out a patent on a deeply unpleasant sectarianism.

In this election there is more clearly than ever a threat of BNP MEPs being elected. Indeed it is a strange state of affairs when one might almost be tempted to give a sigh of relief that UKIP are doing much better than the BNP and may eclipse them. Respect might have been strong enough to have challenged for the left vote in this context of disillusionment with established parties, but sadly because of the SWP-inspired split it is not and it made the sensible decision not to stand. There is no evidence that No2EU is filling that vacuum and therefore it is only right for the serious left to give very careful consideration to whether a vote for the Greens might be more effective in keeping out the BNP. Only the terminally sectarian believe that a good vote for the Greens will be (objectively) counter-revolutionary, or even anti-working class, in these circumstances.

Comment by vladimir antonov-ovseenko — 15 May, 2009 @ 10:17 am
#155

” It also includes some people, particularly those associated with the Leeds-based Alliance for Green Socialism, who have taken out a patent on a deeply unpleasant sectarianism.”

That is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, there is certainly gross sectarianism in some parts of AGS, but it is not true of all of them.

Comment by Andy Newman — 15 May, 2009 @ 10:25 am
External Bulletin

It was an excellent Viva Palestina meeting and Abjol did a good job at the construction workers demo. My criticisms are not aimed at the people who organised these things or the people who work hard with the constituency business. It’s the political direction respect is going in that is my concern.

Our party leader Salma has decided to back the Green candidate. This at a time when a militant trade unionist has broken from the ranks of the Labour supporting TU leadership and has instigated a direct electoral challenge to the Labour Party. If we are ever going to mount any kind of serious socialist alternative to the LP this surely has to be the way.

My last comment #151 was silly-apologies

Comment by paulv — 15 May, 2009 @ 10:32 am
#156 You are quite right Andy. I retract the sweepingness of my generalisation and restrict the allegation in your words to “some parts”.

#157 Paul, you are reading in far too much to tactical considerations that relate to the specifics of this election. The motion that was passed, whose spirit is being implemented by many in Respect, is to continue to develop relations across the broad spectrum of the left. Not to narrow down.

Comment by vladimir antonov-ovseenko — 15 May, 2009 @ 11:04 am
Is George indicating he thinks Peter should be shot. Looks like it from the picture.

Comment by paulv — 15 May, 2009 @ 12:23 pm
chjh - I didn’t mean to complain about being asked to join the party. It was that Liam asked if I was suggesting he do so I meant to suggest it wasn’t quite my way at the time. And the second time I cracked and said he should go right ahead. I might say that John Rees had some interesting things to say about recruitment, as did John Molyneux, but given this site’s habit of printing stolen SWP bulletins, it’s probably still not the place the review his view’s (or Molyneux’s).
In comment #120 someone calling themselves “swp member” told me to “fuck off and die”. If I seriously thought they were as designated I might ask someone in the party to have a word with them about such uncomradely language. But given that’s quite unlikely, I’ve got somewhat used to the vitriolic abuse from the Respect(koboldniks).

Comment by skidmarx — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
“It’s been a really tough one, but after days of deliberation and anxiety we concluded that a candidate standing under the slogan of ‘No to racism’ might just convey a stronger anti-racist message than a candidate standing under the slogan ‘NO2EU’.

Comment by Ger Francis — 15 May, 2009″

Ger I cant believe that Birmingham Respect members have nor read or been informed of the No2EU policy on racism which is (is this really less progressive than the Green policy?):

“Vote to keep out the BNP
Support by the main political parties for unelected and remote EU institutions has alienated millions of people from politics.
Yet, the British National Party has no answers. They peddle hatred and seek to undermine organisations, such as trade unions, that working people rely on to protect them.
The BNP claims to oppose the EU but can’t wait to get on the EU gravy train and link up with other fascist parties in te European parliament.
Vote No2EU - Yes to Democracy to halt the rise of European fascism and stop the BNP promoting racism”

This is in their main leaflet and is supported by No2EU candidates who are progressive NEC members of the RMT, UNISON,FBU as well as rank and file union members as workers in struggle. Give me the No2EU any day to an endoresment of the Greens (which is very different to working with them in a joint coalition/alliance of which we are part with candiadtes).

Comment by Neil Williams — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:12 pm
Neil

The Green Party are putting “No to Racsim” on the ballot papoer as part of their six word party description.

Comment by Andy Newman — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:18 pm
#155 “but sadly because of the SWP-inspired split it is not and it made the sensible decision not to stand.”

he’s at it again.. our friend blames the SWP for everything. we were told by getting rid of the SWP respect was going from strength to strength. no longer held back by the revolutioanry left blah blah blah. reality check: repsect is tiny, it membership declining, no challenge to Galloway backing any number of candidates from New Labour against the left in scotland and now any green party member who asks for his support lol Backing BJ4BW’s and pretending it didn’t really happen, using Palestine solidarity as a cheap means to gain publicity and use it to back certian candidates and parties such as the greens. The word is Wrack is totally pised off and looking elswhere (I must admit he does have a track record of flitting from one thing to another). Hoveman and Ovenden are looking at alternative careers as even they acknowledge the liklihood of their Boss being re-elected is next to nill. Manchester Respect members are uneasy about the abuse of Viva Palestinia and a minority unhappy about the love in with the Greens.

Comment by ll — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:23 pm
Ovseenko
What about that Respect candidate of yours calling for more police on the streets as the main area of the Respect campaign in Bristol. What an alternative!!

Comment by ll — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
jsut checked and the greens are standing against Hicks!! what a love in… a one way bargain.. oh and by the way the BNP are standing there as well. so who is going to stand down?

Comment by ll — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:30 pm
#165

Actually the Greens standing in Lockleaze propably benefits Respect, as the seat is currenbtly held by the Lib Dems, and the Greens are more likely to take votes from the LDs than Respect.

Comment by Andy Newman — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:34 pm
Andy
I will bow to yuor psephology (sic). I hope you are right.

Comment by ll — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:38 pm
#163 “Hoveman and Ovenden are looking at alternative careers”. Kevin Ovenden can speak for himself but this is certainly news to me. Perhaps the charming and erudite ll can tell me what my alternative career might be.

And far from thinking that the chances of Respect success in the next general election in Tower Hamlets are “nill”, by which I assume he or she means nil, I think they are getting better every day.

Comment by rob hoveman — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:39 pm
Rob
are u backing the Brisotl respect candidate who wants more police on the streets? this is the no 1 issues for the candidate. Is this now respect policy?

Comment by ll — 15 May, 2009 @ 1:46 pm
II,
Who are you backing in the Euro-elections?

Comment by Karl Stewart — 15 May, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

RSS feed for comments on this post.

12 May, 2009

GALLOWAY ENDORSES GREEN PARTY EURO CANDIDATE FOR NORTH WEST

170 Comments »

Leave a comment