STATEMENT FROM HAMAS
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/khalidmishal>
This brutality will never break our will to be free
For six months we in Hamas observed the ceasefire. Israel broke it repeatedly from the start
For 18 months my people in Gaza have been under siege, incarcerated inside the world’s biggest prison, sealed off from land, air and sea, caged and starved, denied even medication for our sick. After the slow death policy came the bombardment. In this most densely populated of places, nothing has been spared Israel’s warplanes, from government buildings to homes, mosques, hospitals, schools and markets. More than 540 have been killed and thousands permanently maimed. A third are women and children. Whole families have been massacred, some while they slept.
This river of blood is being shed under lies and false pretexts. For six months we in Hamas observed the ceasefire. Israel broke it repeatedly from the start. Israel was required to open crossings to Gaza, and extend the truce to the West Bank. It proceeded to tighten its20deadly siege of Gaza, repeatedly cutting electricity and water supplies. The collective punishment did not halt, but accelerated - as did the assassinations and killings. Thirty Gazans were killed by Israeli fire and hundreds of patients died as a direct effect of the siege during the so-called ceasefire. Israel enjoyed a period of calm. Our people did not.
When this broken truce neared its end, we expressed our readiness for a new comprehensive truce in return for lifting the blockade and opening all Gaza border crossings, including Rafah. Our calls fell on deaf ears. Yet still we would be willing to begin a new truce on these terms following the complete withdrawal of the invading forces from Gaza.
No rockets have ever been fired from the West Bank. But 50 died and hundreds more were injured there last year at Israel’s hands, while its expansionism proceeded relentlessly. We are meant to be content with shrinking scraps of territory, a handful of cantons at Israel’s mercy, enclosed by it from all sides. The truth is that Israel seeks a one-sided ceasefire, observed by my people alone, in return for siege, starvation, bombardment, assassinations, incursions and colonial settlement. What Israel wants is a gratuitous ceasefire.
The logic of those who demand that we stop our resistance is absurd. They absolve the aggressor and occupier - armed with the deadliest weapons of death and destruction - of responsibility, while blaming the victim, prisoner and occupied. Our modest, home-made rocke ts are our cry of protest to the world. Israel and its American and European sponsors want us to be killed in silence. But die in silence we will not.
What is being visited on Gaza today was visited on Yasser Arafat before. When he refused to bow to Israel’s dictates, he was imprisoned in his Ramallah headquarters, surrounded by tanks for two years. When this failed to break his resolve, he was murdered by poisoning.
Gaza enters 2009 just as it did 2008: under Israeli fire. Between January and February of last year 140 Gazans died in air strikes. And just before it embarked on its failed military assault on Lebanon in July 2006, Israel rained thousands of shells on Gaza, killing 240. From Deir Yassin in 1948 to Gaza today, the list of Israel’s crimes is long. The justifications change, but the reality is the same: colonial occupation, oppression, and never-ending injustice. If this is the “free world” whose “values” Israel is defending, as its foreign minister Tzipi Livni alleges, then we want nothing to do with it.
Israel’s leaders remain in the grip of confusion, unable to set clear goals for the attacks - from ousting the legitimately elected Hamas government and destroying its infrastructure, to stopping the rockets. As they fail to break Gaza’s resistance the benchmark has been lowered. Now they speak of weakening Hamas and limiting the resistance. But they will achieve neither. Gaza’s people are more united than ever, determined not to be terrorised into submission. Ou r fighters, armed with the justice of their cause, have already caused many casualties among the occupation army and will fight on to defend their land and people. Nothing can defeat our will to be free.
Once again, Washington and Europe have opted to aid and abet the jailer, occupier and aggressor, and to condemn its victims. We hoped Barack Obama would break with George Bush’s disastrous legacy but his start is not encouraging. While he swiftly moved to denounce the Mumbai attacks, he remains tongue-tied after 10 days of slaughter in Gaza. But my people are not alone. Millions of freedom-loving men and women stand by its struggle for justice and liberation - witness the daily protests against Israeli aggression, not only in the Arab and Islamic region, but worldwide.
Israel will no doubt wreak untold destruction, death and suffering in Gaza. But it will meet the same fate in Gaza as it did in Lebanon. We will not be broken by siege and bombardment, and will never surrender to occupation.
• Khalid Mish’al is the head of the Hamas political bureau
The front page of the London-based Turkish-language weekly newspaper Avrupa (”Europe”) has the headline:
“Saturday (the Sabbath) is a day you are not allowed to work but you are free to commit a massacre”
www.avrupagazete.com
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 6:40 pm
A more literal rendering would be “It is a sin to work on Saturday (the Sabbath) but there is freedom to carry out a slaughter”
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 6:44 pm
2# well put
Comment by optimistic Larry Nugent — 8 January, 2009 @ 6:50 pm
“Avrupa” describes itself as “the most distributed and read award-winning Turkish-language newspaper in England”. Its editorial line is pretty establishment - it is not left-wing or Islamist and even its name suggests a “European” orientation. But the article reflects anger about Gaza among Turkish speakers in London.
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 6:59 pm
How can anyone come put garbage like this on the screen.That really takes the cake: if you think Israel was the one who broke the ceasefire you are either mad or just blatantly lying.
Delusional, dishonest, racist tripe!
Comment by kardinal birkutzki — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
Like the state of Israel would never lie to you.
It would seem even Pope Benny has trouble with what the Israelis are doing in Gaza, and here is a Roman Catholic cardinal defending them. Will wonders never cease…
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
Delusional! Away and check the television and not the the Tel Aviv news. you cockroach.
Comment by optimistic Larry Nugent — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Kardinal #5 - The State of Israel was founded on a lie (a land without a people for a people without a land), and has sustained itself on the lie ever since. Now even the International Red Cross is accusing Israel of war crimes.
On another note, I attended the demo outside the Israeli Embassy in London last night, proud to join those brave young, and almost exclusively, Muslims and Arabs who shouted down the scum that came out to demonsrate in support of Israeli war crimes.
The police were there in force, yet the young comrades stood their ground. I was disappointed at the absence of the left at this demo.
It is these young men and women, who took on the police last night outside the Embassy, who should be leading the movement.
Comment by John Wight — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:29 pm
kardinal birkutzki the admin has allowed a poster here named ‘dos tres muchas Vietnam’ to make numerous postings refering to jews and the jewish faith!!!! This poster is a blatant anti-semite yet has been allowed to post with impunity on what purports to be a ’socialist’ website!!! An exraordinary and truly shocking state of affairs!!!
But should we surprised by this given that this blog has been given over to spekespeople of the holocaust denying anti-semities of hamas! What next?? A contribution from the infamous hitler lovers of the muslim brotherhood???? Or david duke perhaps? Whatever this boards admin will have some serious questions to answer…..
Comment by david — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:33 pm
When I was there (not last night) the left was certainly present but undeniably not as militant as young Muslims. It sounds like the proportion of militant Muslim people has increased. The left should be ashamed.
I will try to get down tomorrow night (Friday).
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:35 pm
So let’s get this clear. You produce claims that Israel is slaughtering hundreds of civilians in ‘carnage’ in Gaza, even though the vast majority of the dead are said by both Israel and the UN to be Hamas operatives. You ignore totally the Hamas operatives and you focus instead emotively on the dead children and grieving parents.
You make no mention whatsoever of the fact that Hamas are hiding their arsenals in and under civilian houses and apartments, in schools and hospitals and ambulances and mosques, thus making the inhabitants targets for Israeli forces trying to destroy the infrastructure of terror; instead you blame Israel for the deaths of those inhabitants. You fail to report that Hamas are herding Gazan civilians, including children, into buildings from where they are firing missiles at Israeli soldiers in order that the civilians should be killed; instead you blame Israel for the deaths of those civilians and those children.
You fail to report that the Israelis are warning Gazans through leaflets and text messages to evacuate before an attack in order to safeguard civilian life; instead you blame Israel for the destruction of that civilian life, which you do not distinguish from the killing of terrorists. You do not tell the public that sometimes Hamas even use these warnings to bring civilians into these targeted buildings in order that they should be killed for propaganda effect; instead you simply add these deaths to the toll of casualties for which you hold Israel solely responsible. You make no mention of any of these these crimes against humanity by Hamas, but instead you accuse Israel of massacring the innocent
While some comments from those whom john wright has described charmingly as ’scum’
“I was there last night - in fact me and my mate were one of the first to arrive. As we crossed from the station and walked towards the embassy, we were greeted by lunatics waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags. In front of us walked a young man, wearing a kippah. He got out of his bag and Israeli flag and was immediately taken to the side by two police officers. After questioning him for about 10 minutes, he was issued a caution. After he was released we went up to talk to him - he showed us the police caution - and i kid you not - it stated that by getting out an Israeli flag he was causing provocation to the pro palestinian demonstration.
Another who was there wrote this:
“It was genuinely scary afterwards with gangs of Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs, roaming Kensington High Street looking for Jews to beat up.
While a previous post on the site shows the astonishing spectacle, on a similar demonstration in Dublin, of Irish toddlers dressed as Palestinians in military fatigues – just as they do in Gaza and the West Bank. Depravity has clearly been globalised.”
while Chas Newky-Burden describes this account of his experience on a recent demonstration
“Between High Street Kensington tube station and the embassy were numerous folk from the pro-Hamas rally. They shouted and screamed abuse at anyone they perceived as headed towards the Israel solidarity rally, including some elderly Jews. When I arrived at the rally area and was giving an interview to a television crew, two of the pro-Hamas bunch jumped in my way and screamed at me.
I then joined the Israel Solidarity Rally. The hatred from the pro-Hamas side was intense. They hurled the most wicked abuse imaginable, and threw objects. Some of their number tried to break through the barrier. Thankfully the police had undertaken searches because some of the Hamas supporters had arrived at their demonstration with bricks and knives. One of their lot came over and spat at a young Jewish boy who had been minding his own business. Then some of them drove past our rally shouting abusive remarks and waving pro-terrorist flags. Meanwhile, the Israel rally stayed calm and dignified. We sang about peace, and also sang the Israeli and English national anthems.”
Comment by david — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:39 pm
I cited a Turkish newspaper noticing that the Israeli state kills people on the Sabbath. It’s their journalism, not mine. I happen to be able to read Turkish.
If I were you, I really, really would try to rein in the state of Israel. It’s getting very unpopular…
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
eh? what u mean by that? Is that some kind of threat? well im really really scared that some jihadist will come get me lol. Oh and please dont try to wriggle out of the fact that you have made numerous postings on here refering to jews and people of the jewish faith - they are on the ‘record’ as they say…or are you trying to say they came from a’turkish newspaper’ too????????
Comment by david — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
I like your stream of consciousness posts, David. Is that an angina attack you’re having?
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:51 pm
Sadly I missed last nights demo, had no idea that the pro Israelis were going to have a counter demo. Would have been interesting if there were any BNP on it, the pix on the Evening Standard showed were a lot of union jacks flying. It really wouldn’t surprise me of there were a few fash on the Israeli demo, both they and the BNP are vile racists of the most despicable kind.”Singing the English national anthem”? Says it all really.
Comment by paddy garcia — 8 January, 2009 @ 7:54 pm
If there is one thing that Zionism needs, and has always needed, above all else, it is anti-Semitism. The more that pogromist mentalities develop around the world, the more insecure non-Israeli Jews feel in their home countries, the more likely they are to decamp to Israel. European anti-Semitism - the Nazi holocaust - created Israel, and ignorant Jew-haters around the world have done more to sustain it than 60 years-worth of US funding. If we really want to work against Zionism, we need to oppose all forms of Jew-bashing in our own countries. European socialism, historically, has a good record on this. We should cherish it.
Comment by Francis King — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:14 pm
On an earlier thread on this issue, Andy made the point that the Israelis do not want either a two-state or unitary-state solution, but a permanent state of conflict.
If this is true, and it certainly seems so, then the only chance for a stable peace is if the Palestinians are sufficiently well-armed to be able to effectively deter Israel militarily.
Comment by Anonymous — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:19 pm
I am reminded of a former Mossad agent named Ostrovsky questioning why his bosses recruited Israeli spies among the Jewish communities in their countries. Ostrovsky said this was contributing to anti-Semitism. His boss said, “So what? They should all be coming to Israel anyway.”
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:25 pm
That would be a great idea, but where could they get all the weapons that they would need from? Fighting fund collections for a few Ak47s and RPGs?
In order to resist the Israeli state they would need a lot more than what they have now such as sophisticated ground to air missile systems to shoot down Israeli aircraft, anti tank weapons and all that. Oh and some jet fighters and helicopter gunships would be nice too. Get those tins rattling comrades!
Comment by paddy garcia — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:28 pm
#23 - discussing fund-raising is a bad idea since the British state criminalises the people doing the fighting as “terrorists” and also criminalises funding them. But I see what you mean.
I also see there were clashes in Oslo between pro-Palestinians and pro-Zionists. There does seem to be a policy now of encouraging counter-demonstrations on the part of the Zionists.
Meanwhile, Theodor Herzl is still puzzled, unable to understand why his master is lying still on the floor…
Comment by dos tres muchas Vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:35 pm
dos tres muchas Vietnam are you familiar with milkbars ?
Comment by Mr Benn — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:49 pm
Well, I’ve seen “Battle of Algiers”. The Black Panthers recommended seeing it to their members.
And still no sign of David…
Do you think “death by hasbara” is more or less pleasant than “death by chocolate”?
Comment by dos tres muchas vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
I notice that the IDF has now killed aid workers during the supposed truce to allow aid to come in, forcing the UN to pull out.
Now the killing will begin in earnest.
Comment by Mr Benn — 8 January, 2009 @ 9:01 pm
I believe a large pro-Israel rally is taking place in Trafalgar Square this Sunday. Hopefully there will be a strong counter demo. As far as I’m concerned these people are no better than the BNP.
Comment by John Wight — 8 January, 2009 @ 9:04 pm
I was most certainly NOT suggesting that activists here should become involved in any foolish or illegal activities.
I just think the point needs to be made that, just as Israel is able to receive weapons, armaments, munitions etc, so should the Palestinians have the same rights to arm themselves.
They are fighting unbelievably bravely in a truly incomprehensively unequal struggle and we should all salute their courage and demand that the world - beginning with our own government - accepts their right to comprehensively arm themselves and sends them the arms that they need for a fair fight.
We should be urging our government to send arms to the Palestinians and to pull our army out of Iraq and send our troops to fight the Israelis.
Of course it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but we should call for this and ask “why not?”
Comment by Anonymous — 8 January, 2009 @ 9:06 pm
#29. I am sure you weren’t but you would be surprised what is illegal nowadays.
Comment by dos tres muchas vietnam — 8 January, 2009 @ 9:09 pm
Hello from Spain,
I hope the conflict finish as soon as possible, but it is a massacre that it hasn’t justification.
The life hasn’t prize.
Cheer up!!!!
PS: I wish to have contact with another socialist people, plese you feel free to conctact me.
Best Regards
Comment by Johan — 8 January, 2009 @ 10:48 pm
This has to be the end of socialist integrity in this country.
Effectively, unconditional support for Hamas.
Socialists can wriggle and squirm but we are deluding ourselves. We are supporting the nastiest bunch of totalitarian thugs pretending to be a government.
We make out Hamas is some kind of heroic resistance but close our eyes and ears to its horrors.
Islam has bloody borders but it has bloody innards too.
I have left the SWP -I just can’t take any more.
Comment by socialist reason — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:10 am
#11 I suppose, “david”, that you feel quite self-satisfied taking on the “Goliath” of the Palestinians of Gaza, starved and isolated for almost 2 years by an Israeli ruling class so twisted and cynical it will compete over who is most keen to butcher children in order to win an election. Your justifications are typically facile, just as your entire political ideology is a disgrace, hiding behind the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century, the Holocaust, in order to conduct a viscous and vigorous example of imperialistic realpolitik for more than half a century.
“You produce claims that Israel is slaughtering hundreds of civilians in ‘carnage’ in Gaza, even though the vast majority of the dead are said by both Israel and the UN to be Hamas operatives.”
How foolish you are. This is due to the fact that the UN (who have now suspended efforts in Gaza after Israeli forces repeatedly shot at and murdered their Palestinian colleagues) was counting ALL Palestinian adult men as “non civilian”. Do you read Israeli propaganda or are you able to simply absorb it through some simple process of osmosis that doesn’t require you to actually engage your brain?
“You fail to report that the Israelis are warning Gazans through leaflets and text messages to evacuate before an attack in order to safeguard civilian life”
You persist with your abject idiocy. Do you suppose that Gazans, upon receiving leaflets and text messages (don’t make me laugh) simply choose to stay and die? Are you truly that bigoted that you believe ordinary men, women and children simply hang around and die to make a point?
Interesting you do not refer to the fact that Israel has been forced to withdraw its lies about missiles being fired from the UN school in Jabalaya where as many as 40 innocent people, sheltering from the Israeli onslaught that had been unleashed upon them, were massacred mercilessly by an army that knew full well that it was a UN school. Or the slaughter of an extended family in Zeitoun, 100 of them herded into one house before being shelled by those self same soldiers - this reported in the right-wing, pro-Israeli Telegraph!
Your justifications are as hollow and laughable as the propaganda that escapes the farcical mouthpieces of the Israeli army that pop up on the news on an hourly basis to excuse the latest atrocity. They’ve become so ludicrous that even mainstream news is humiliating them on a daily basis - Channel 4 news is hardly run by raving Trots but switching between it and BBC, you’d swear there was another war going on. The Israeli prime minister’s spokesperson was utterly humiliated this evening, live on TV. It’s hard to lie your way out of a hole when even the Red Cross is saying, openly, that Israeli forces prevented them from rescuing injured, dying, starving children from an area blown to pieces by Israeli rockets. What a nasty little toady of Zionist oppression you must be to spout these lies!
To back up your hollow position, you post a mixture of obvious truths (people were angered at your disgraceful “protest” in support of Zionist slaughter in Gaza. Well, whoda thunk it?) to unsubstantiated lies (”middle eastern thugs looking for Jews to beat up”)
Let’s be clear, everyone on that protest, in support of mass murder of innocents in Gaza, was not there representing Jews or Judaism. The fact that numerous Jews have vocally opposed this disgraceful attack makes a mockery of your pathetic attempt to link anti-Zionist, anti-genocidal feeling to anti-Semitism. Every one on those protests in support of Israeli barbarism is either a disgusting proponent of the worst form of one-sided butchery and imperialistic violence, a raving lunatic, or a child unfortunate to have absolute trash for a parent or guardian. I would laugh my socks off if the lot of you got seven shades of shit kicked out of you for such a brazen show sadism. Your attempt to suggest that you and your bloodthirsty friends are in any way victims of pro-Gazan demonstrators is about as convincing as your attempt to suggest that the fourth biggest war machine in the world is conducting a legitimate attempt to quell the violence of an unruly neighbour.
What is going on is Israeli terrorism against Palestinians, something Israel has practised ever since it achieved statehood, what Zionists in the Middle East have practised for years before. On Saturday, I truly hope that protesters will converge on the Israeli Embassy in London and take it apart, brick by brick. That Jews and gentiles, Muslims and socialists, anarchists and activists of all hues and creeds and colours can unite to demand an end to the Israeli government’s war crimes, an end to the complicity of our own craven rulers, and freedom for the Palestinians.
Now piss-off you absolute wanker.
Comment by Inigo Montoya — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:24 am
#29 “Socialist Reason”, you’re either a fraud or a really really stupid pillock with no sense of timing.
The unconditional support is for the poor bastards locked in Gaza. If you can’t see that then you’re beyond redemption.
If your comment is for real, go and boil your head and see if you can get some sense into it.
If you’re a troll, well done, you really got a rise out of me.
If you’re autistic, then apologies, you cannot be blamed for having no empathy.
Comment by Strategist — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:30 am
#29 - “I have left the SWP -I just can’t take any more”
You’re most likely a trolling liar who was never a member of the SWP. If not, you are a clown-shoe who somehow got passed our usually excellent and discerning quality detectors - you clearly joined on the same day as that stand-up “member” who “joined” and then buggered off to the Tories (check me out with my self-deprecating humour!). Anyone who would leave the SWP because of our support for the Gazan people and the right of Hamas to resist, despite our objections to many elements of it’s program, is a total (drumroll…) numpty.
Comment by Inigo Montoya — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:31 am
And yeah, in post 30, I did mean viscous. I was referring to the viscosity of the blood your IDF friends are wading in. I did not misspell vicious. Oh no, not me…
Comment by Inigo Montoya — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:34 am
“I have left the SWP -I just can’t take any more.”
Don’t let the door hit you on your arse on your way out.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:57 am
can’t believe what i am reading, toytown revolutionaries like PC saying the pro-Israieli protesters are as bad as the BNP, ffs, get some proportion, the left is finished in this country if it cannot condemn or in PC’s case condone the sort of anti-semitic attacks that happened in London this week. I feel ashamed to be on the left at this moment
Comment by frenetic — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:01 am
“I feel ashamed to be on the left at this moment”
Where is your compassion for the Palestinians being murdered by Israel? If you don’t condemn Israel then you aren’t on the left, you’re on the right.
PG said that the pro-Israeli’s are racists like the BNP. He is completely correct about this and anyone on the left should be describing Israel for what it is: a racist state. PG is also correct to ask whether the BNP are among the pro-Israel demonstrators because Griffin and the BNP wholeheartedly support Israel.
Frenetic, the question is why do you support Zionist racist murderers who are supported by the BNP Nazi’s?
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 4:19 am
#28
Cheering for an organisation that hates women and gays nice!
Agreed Israel is mainly to blame for this mess, but we should avoid cheerleading for islamofascists.
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 8:27 am
I really can’t see why Frenetic says that he is “ashamed to be on the left at the moment.” Of course everyone on the left, anyone with any sense of deceny at all, will utterly condemn any anti-semitic attacks.
But why is Frenetic connecting alleged anti-semitic attacks with “the left”? Is he suggesting that these alleged attacks have been carried out by members of left-wing organisations? What nonsense.
Green socialist says that Israel is only “mainly” responsible for this conflict. How can he say only “mainly”?
Israel has occupied Palestinian land in breach of so-called “international law” since 1967, is currently waging war on the Palestinians in their own land and has repeatedly carried out similar acts of aggression.
Israel is completely to blame for these acts of aggression and anyone with an ounce of sense must be able to see this.
Inigo Montoya and Ray are absolutely right with their analysis of the situation and it is also right to highlight the massive military imbalance between the two sides in this conflict.
Israel will never stop its permanent military aggression until it is effectively prevented or seriously deterred from doing so.
We should ask why the world will not go into action to help the Palestinians defeat their invaders and we should ask why the rest of the world refuses to help the Palestinians to defend themselves.
Comment by Karl Stewart — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:06 am
#38
So its ok for Hamas to send rockets against civilians?
If you think its impostant to “take sides” then I’m with the people of Gaza, but I think we need to be critical of the politics of Hamas.
I’d agree that the background for this situation was created by Israeli agression, but Hamas have been responsible for excecuting political rivals in Fatah for example and are nasty reactionaries, who would no doubt kill on the same scale as the IDF if they only had the weapons.
I think now is the time for the rest of the world to force peace on Israel and disarm the region, creating either a viable Palestinian State or what I’d advocate, a single state that protects the right of all the people of the region. - Be realistic demand the impossible!
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:26 am
“but I think we need to be critical of the politics of Hamas.”
Tell me how that does any good at all right now, except to make you feel better.
Comment by external bulletin — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:54 am
Its not about how I feel, but about building a lasting peace.
As I said we need to side with the people of Gaza against this onslaught. Being critical of the policies of Hamas doesn’t make one a supporter of the war crimes of the Israeli state.
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:00 am
“Being critical of the policies of Hamas doesn’t make one a supporter of the war crimes of the Israeli state.”
No, it doesn’t. But it’s also entirely irrelevant right now.
Nothing Hamas has or hasn’t done, does or doesn’t believe, threatens or doesn’t threaten is of any relevance at all right now.
It’s a diversion - it’s an attempt to make people think we’re not bad people.
But it gives in to the ideological framework set by the mainstream media and the right: We must first prove our purity and only then are we allowed to oppose Israel. But once we start doing the first, we will never be allowed to do the second.
Once we start going down the “I am against what Israel is doing, but I hate Hamas’s politics”, the other side will do exactly the same as they did over Iraq, forcing us to condemn every single thing Hamas is ever alleged to have done, not allowing us to simply hate Israel’s barbarity, making the entire discussion about Hamas instead of about Israel’s war crimes.
It’s completely redundant to even discuss Hamas’s politics right now. They’re irrelevant to this.
Just ask any of the parents whose children have been hit by missiles in the last few weeks.
Comment by external bulletin — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:07 am
“If you’re autistic, then apologies, you cannot be blamed for having no empathy.”
Excuse me, I have Aspergers syndrome, and I really object very strongly to the use of autism as some sort of insult and to the idea that autistic people have no empathy - which is a total myth.
btw I am a Palestinian supporter and SWP member
Comment by rocobley — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:24 am
Ok understand your point, but after the dust settles there needs to be a settlement. I don’t give a F**K what Zionists think of me, I have been called all things under the sun, “Self Hating Jew” is a favourite.
Hamas have a record of murdering Arab Socialists.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449
Hamas are a gift to the Israeli right and were funded quite heavily by them as a counterweight to the PLO.
I think we also need to be in solidarity with the brave minority in Israel resisting this war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHi2F67_uRo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB23y9WQOWE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpeC7P-2LfU
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:25 am
#41 - “It’s completely redundant to even discuss Hamas’s politics right now. They’re irrelevant to this.
Just ask any of the parents whose children have been hit by missiles in the last few weeks.”
Those children have been hit because of the politics of Hamas, both in general terms
- if Hamas didn’t fire rockets at Israel, Israel wouldn’t be trying to kill those firing the rockets
and more specifically -
if Hamas didn’t base its rocket launchers, ammo stores etc deliberately among civilians, Israel wouldn’t be killing children in its attempts to hit rocket launchers.
To say “the politics of Hamas are irrelevant” is abolutely absurd, because Israel’s actions are a direct result of those politics.
Comment by Jonny Mac — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:56 am
No Jonny Mac, you’re wrong.
Israel’s policy is one of permanent war and of viewing the Palestinian people as sub-human.
The history of the last 40 years clearly shows that, regardless of whom the Palestinian people are led or represented by.
Palestinians choose to fight, using any means available to them.
If they chose not to fight, Israel would still treat them as sub-human.
Comment by Karl Stewart — 9 January, 2009 @ 11:04 am
Hamas have given Israel an excuse to commit genocide, useful idiots. They have the essentailly the same aims as Likud and the rest of the Israeli right wing “destroy the enemy and drive them into the sea”. They are as anti-semitic as the Israeli regime is racist against the arab people.
Agreed with the sentiment that whatever Hamas are, we need to show solidarity with the people of Gaza right now.
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 11:22 am
#45 - Karl, are you saying that Israel would be attacking Gaza today, from the air and with ground troops, if Hamas had not resumed its rocket attacks?
If so, I can’t agree with you.
If not, then whether or not Israel views Palestinians as ’sub-human’, then the fact remains that without Hamas’ actions, the people of Gaza would not be suffering as they are.
Comment by Jonny Mac — 9 January, 2009 @ 11:36 am
That simply isn’t true. Even the statistics from the Israeli government website show that the ceasefire held very well:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V6K4fnZSzxE/SWRzJEvSqoI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/8lc6XBNoSJI/s1600-h/rockets2008.jpg
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Missile+fire+from+Gaza+on+Israeli+civilian+targets+Aug+2007.htm
And that the few rockets launched were claimed by groups linked to Fatah. This changed after November 4th, when Israel broke the ceasefire http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians.
If the Israeli government had wanted to stop the attacks they’d have respected and renewed the ceasefire (In fact they’d have taken up Hamas’s offer of a ten year ceasefire http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24235665/), which Hamas clearly had the ability to honour.
Comment by Roobin — 9 January, 2009 @ 11:48 am
Jonny Mac: “the fact remains that without Hamas’ actions, the people of Gaza would not be suffering as they are”
That is not a fact, it a ludicrous assertion with no basis in fact. I seem to recall that, prior to the formation of Hamas, there were … mass murders of Palestinians by Israel! Complicity in the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla! The Naqba!
If you REALLY believe that Israel would be fine with Palestinians were it not for Hamas you are a buffoon. For Hamas, despite its many political shortcomings, is the representative of Palestinian popular resistance. This was proved when Palestinians voted for Hamas. It was proved when Abbas and Fatah (despite their “better politics”) betrayed the Palestinian cause by acting as proxies for Israel, attacking the democratically elected government, colluding with the Israelis to sell the Palestinian cause down the river for a sniff of power as a puppet regime in non-viable, non-contiguous bantustan state that would be permanently at the mercy of Israel and US imperialism.
The truth is that those who seek to place the emphasis on blaming Hamas are not allies of socialists or the Palestinians. Whether through duplicity or sheer idiocy, they are the “acceptable” mouthpieces of Israeli and Western propaganda. It is a victory for the unity of the socialist movement that, despite all our rifts and ructions of past years, all credible socialist forces are forthright in their condemnation of Israel, their support for the people of Gaza and their refusal to be drawn into blaming Hamas, a ridiculous and obsequious position best left to liberals and Labour ministers.
Comment by Inigo Montoya — 9 January, 2009 @ 12:09 pm
“Hamas have a record of murdering Arab Socialists.”
Ho Chi Minh viciously suppressed Vietnamese Trotskyites (there were not so many of them, but more than average). I don’t suppose anyone had any trouble with the Vietnamese resistance fighting the French and Americans.
Comment by Roobin — 9 January, 2009 @ 12:15 pm
yes where does Hamas stand on socialism and communism ?????
apart from killing them and chasing them out of Gaza
or on equal or gay rights
I can understand Left support for the PLO traditions but Hamas
your joking
Comment by Sean — 9 January, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
The people of Gaza are being singled out for collective punishment by the Israeli state. The people being killed in Gaza are Palestinians.
This should be stopped. British people have a special reason to show solidarity with the Palestinians as their state, ostensibly democratic, is actively supporting the oppression of the Palestinians through arms and aid to Israel.
The question as to whether Gazans do or do not support various rights is neither here nor there, as it would be if any other people faced the same oppression. They are being slaughtered.
Comment by Roobin — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
“This should be stopped. British people have a special reason to show solidarity with the Palestinians as their state, ostensibly democratic, is actively supporting the oppression of the Palestinians through arms and aid to Israel.”
Agree 100%
but Hamas are still Anti Gay, Anti Trade Union and Anti - Semitic. Recognising this does not prevent us from supporting the people of Gaza and trying to stop their slaughter.
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:28 pm
“Recognising this does not prevent us from supporting the people of Gaza and trying to stop their slaughter.”
It depends on what kind of ‘recognising’ is done. The StWC slogan for the 2006 Lebanon demos was “ceasefire now”. It was an excellent slogan for two reasons. (1) It was practical, as the British government had not called for a ceasefire and, as we’ve agreed, it’s support was crucial for sustaining the war. (2) It helped rally people who would not support a slogan such as “victory to the resistance”.
The slogans for Saturday’s demo, if I remember exactly, are “Israel Out of Gaza - End the Blockade”. That’s right and that’s relevant, I think. Quibbles about any Gazan’s position on gender or sexual liberation aren’t.
Comment by Roobin — 9 January, 2009 @ 1:48 pm
“but Hamas are still Anti Gay, Anti Trade Union and Anti - Semitic. Recognising this does not prevent us from supporting the people of Gaza and trying to stop their slaughter.”
In Israel you can be gay and a trade unionist as long as you’re not Palestinian. So much for Israeli democracy. The Israeli police tried to prevent gays marching because the right objected. Israel is hardly a gay paradise.
As for anti-semitism this hasn’t stopped the Zionists jumping into bed with some of the most anti-semitic countries and organisations when it suits their agenda. It didn’t stop them supporting Hamas in the 80’s in an effort to undermine Fatah.
Let’s not forget that Hamas were elected democratically by all Palestinians unlike in Israel where only a select few are allowed to vote. Israel broke the ceasefire by murdering Hamas members. It has no intention of acting democratically towards the Palestinians. Hamas isn’t the problem in the region - the Zionists are.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun
This is why we condemn Israel. How can anything that Hamas has ever done compare to the murderous and pathological acts of the Zionists?
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:39 pm
Historically, Israel’s actions are similar to those of the European settlers to America, who stole the land of the indigineous people and, when they fought back, the Europeans justified their acts of barbaric genocide by portraying the native people as “savages” and not worthy of human compassion.
Where they didn’t fight back, their oppression continued at an even higher rate.
Native Americans were given the worst and least prosperous parts of the nation as “reservations,” but the Europeans still retained the right to intervene there whenever they wanted, along with the right to redraw such boundaries at any time.
Perhaps the culture of the native American peoples would not have matched up to Green Socialist’s liberal sensitivities either, but their resistance to the European settlers - by whatever means available to them - was right and just, as today’s resistance by the Palestinians to today’s attempted genocide is right too.
It’s a genocide driven by exactly the same racism.
Comment by Karl Stewart — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:42 pm
If I was in Gaza I’d be fighting with Hamas against the racist Israeli’s. Hamas would be my allies against Israel and socialists in Gaza should be fighting with Hamas to defeat Israel.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:46 pm
” http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/brit-neo-nazis-support-israel-part-2.html “
Nazi’s on pro-Israel demo. Racists supporting their fellow racists.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 2:57 pm
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/08/israeli-troops-kill-un-aid-truck-driver/
Not only do the Zionists buddy up with the Nazis they also kill UN aid workers and try to starve children to death.
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/08/red-cross-israeli-behavior-in-gaza-shocking/
I think Hamas has a lot of catching up to do if it wants to get anywhere near the genocidal acts perpetuated by the Israelis. It’s revealing that despite being elected and governing the Palestinians we have not seen the kind of atrocities from Hamas that Israel are perpetuating. So much for the Zionist claims that Hamas are undemocratic terrorists. The Zionists are projecting their own murderous behaviour onto the Palestinians.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
The behaviour of the IDF in Gaza invites comparisons with the Nazi’s treatment of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Yet there are still those on the left who think that the priority is to condemn Hamas. Even worse over at HP they are using the Holocaust to defend the murder of Palestinians. How sick and twisted can the Zionists get?
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 3:18 pm
You’re right Ray, you talk a load of crap about Amicus, but you’re right on this issue.
Comment by Karl Stewart — 9 January, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
“Yet there are still those on the left who think that the priority is to condemn Hamas.”
Not the priority when the IDF is slaughtering indiscriminately, but anyone who imagines being on the left involves supporting the anti-working-class bourgeois religious nationalists of Hamas has lost any class perspective whatsoever. They will clamber over a mountain of dead, Israeli and Palestinian, to achieve their bullshit religious ends.
Comment by Jim — 9 January, 2009 @ 6:15 pm
“They will clamber over a mountain of dead, Israeli and Palestinian, to achieve their bullshit religious ends.”
If this is so then why are Hamas willing to negotiate a ceasefire of virtually any length and a two state solution but Israel is not? Why do Hamas follow the democratic process by allowing all Palestinians to vote unlike Israel where so-called “democracy” is only available to a select few? Why are Hamas not murdering children and aid workers and refusing medical aid to casualties of war as the Israeli’s are doing? Who are the monsters in this conflict?
While you swallow the US and Zionist propaganda about Hamas you are helping the Israelis perpetuate the conflict. That’s not going to bring about peace in the Middle East. If you are a socialist then that means siding with the oppressed, warts and all. It means fighting side by side with them to defend their existence.
We have seen how the Stalinist policy of a plague on both houses allowed reaction to prevail in the past. Socialist cannot make the same mistake regarding the Palestinians. Therefore we support and fight alongside Hamas. It’s the only way to win Palestinians to socialism and encourage them to reject religious ideology.
“You’re right Ray, you talk a load of crap about Amicus, but you’re right on this issue.”
We’re both right on Israel but sadly you’re still wrong about Amicus. I believe we can live with our differences in one area for the sake of unity in another.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 8:07 pm
ray - you make so many mistakes in your comments I wonder whether you ever think calmly before you post.
Do you have any links with a workplace, do you ever discuss these issues in an office.
It’s alright mouthing off in this forum but what happens when you come across someone with some political sophistication.
Just off the top of my head -
There are people who know that Hamas formally broke the ceasefire and have rejected the UN ceasefire proposal.
Your claim that Hamas will accept a permanent ceasefire anytime is just 100% wrong.
There are people who have seen the video of the Hamas spokesman advocating the use of human shields and calling for the killing of ALL jews. You are just to have to accept this.
The last Hamas decree on 23 Dec was the authorisation of crucifixion. Nice people!
Also, the BNP are not wholeheartedly supporting Israel. Griffin is quite clear about his ‘plague on both their houses’ policy. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t state that the BNP are jew hating Nazis AND they side with the jews in Israel.
OK, we might get a few thousand on demos, but most working people don’t want the destruction of Israel, they know about the rockets into Israel and they think Israel should defend itself. And let’s face it, we are all worried that Hamas flags will appear on our demos.
Just today, in my canteen, Hamas rockets were compared to ‘What would we do if France had been sending rockets to the south coast for 6 years’.
Your ultra left posturing adds nothing to the argument and leaves you wide open when your exaggerations are spotted.
But worse of all, your inference that those socialists that have serious concerns about Hamas, are siding with Israel and are ‘worse than the BNP’ is disgraceful.
I know a lot of good comrades who don’t take your position, but have years of active work in the ANL and have taken on the NF in East London.
You should apologise NOW.
Comment by socialist reason — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:05 pm
What a depressing read. Support Hamas or you’re a racist/Zionist is the jist of it all. The left is a sewer.
Comment by paulm — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:23 pm
I would never take sides against the Palestinian people who are bearing the brunt of the assault.
Although I can help attacking Hamas for their fascist politics, the people of Gaza are not Hamas, like the people of the UK are not New Labour and they are the ones who are suffering, so I don’t have to remain uncritical of Hamas.
#63 and 64 - Hamas do have different elements, some more extreme and some more reasonable. Remember Hamas were funded by right wing Zionists like Begin in order to divide and rule and to break up the PLO.
Comment by green socialist — 9 January, 2009 @ 9:52 pm
“Your ultra left posturing adds nothing to the argument and leaves you wide open when your exaggerations are spotted.”
Really? You’re not even a socialist. You’re a Harry’s Place Zionist troll posing very badly, may I say, as someone on the left. This is a dead give away:
“OK, we might get a few thousand on demos, but most working people don’t want the destruction of Israel, they know about the rockets into Israel and they think Israel should defend itself. And let’s face it, we are all worried that Hamas flags will appear on our demos.”
I know you Zionists have lost the art of subtlety over the many years of bombings and murder of Palestinians. And perhaps, like the apartheid white South Africans who you Zionists armed and trained, you have developed a very base and literal culture. But please try to be a bit more sophisticated with your charade.
As for the ceasefire:
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/israels-fabricated-rocket-crisis.html
“But worse of all, your inference that those socialists that have serious concerns about Hamas, are siding with Israel and are ‘worse than the BNP’ is disgraceful.”
And we’re supposed to believe your twisted version of events when you can’t even quote me correctly. Where did I accuse anyone of being ‘worse than the BNP’? If you think you’re going to succeed with your strategy of trying to split support for the Palestinians with your Zionist propaganda about Hamas then dream on.
“I know a lot of good comrades who don’t take your position, but have years of active work in the ANL and have taken on the NF in East London.”
More Zionist nonsense dressed up with a left spin to split support for the Palestinians. Do try harder. I’m embarrassed for you.
Comment by Ray — 9 January, 2009 @ 10:34 pm
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn…h? v=KntmpoRXFX4
CNN reports that Israel broke the ceasefire.
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 2:39 am
Try again:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn…h?v=KntmpoRXFX4
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 2:40 am
Maybe this time?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 2:47 am
More proof Israel broke the ceasefire. Check out the graph from the Israeli Foreign Ministry website.
http://warincontext.org/2008/12/29/editorial-silence-has-become-complicity/
(Links courtesy of the Tomb.)
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 2:53 am
http://www.cloggie.org/wissewords/index.php?entry=/20090105-gaza.txt
How Israel planned the attack on Gaza before and during the ceasefire.
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 2:58 am
Ray, I agree the IDF broke the ceasefire and I’m not banging on about Hamas in the wider world now as it’s not the time, but as a working class activist rather than a diplomat I’m looking at the larger political question. It’s not my job to cosy up to reactionary religious-nationalist movements who quite apart from the rest have cracked down on independent labour activists in Gaza. You could as well say your blind support for Hamas is splitting support for Palestinians because you’re alienating people who don’t want to ally themselves with what is a very specific political creed, one that is in fact anti-socialist and religiously inspired.
Comment by Jim — 10 January, 2009 @ 7:20 am
Jim, well said, I don’t see why we need to turn a blind eye to what Hamas are or represent, whilst standing firmly against Israeli agression and recognising that the racist, colonialist policies of Israel are at the roots of this disaster.
Comment by green socialist — 10 January, 2009 @ 8:45 am
#58. There is nothing stopping you packing your AK47 and going off to Gaza to fight with Hamas. Other than they probably don’t need toytown revolutionaries right now. Do you know how to fire a gun, by the way?
I’m with #75 and #74
Comment by ross bradshaw — 10 January, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
“#58. There is nothing stopping you packing your AK47 and going off to Gaza to fight with Hamas. Other than they probably don’t need toytown revolutionaries right now. Do you know how to fire a gun, by the way?
I’m with #75 and #74″
And there’s nothing stopping you treating this issue seriously but it’s a shame you don’t. Did you join the reactionaries who used to shout that at protesters against the Vietnam war? Who’s side are you actually on?
“I don’t see why we need to turn a blind eye to what Hamas are or represent,”
Let me ask you, if you were in Gaza at the moment would you be fighting alongside Fatah and Hamas against the Israeli slaughter? Or would you, in the midst of a humanitarian disaster perpetrated by Israel, be focusing on Hamas shortcomings?
You’re playing right into the hands of Israel who are attempting to undermine any negotiations whether it’s with Hamas, Fatah or the Grand Old Duke of York. When Fatah were in power the US and Israel tarred the PLO with the same brush as they are doing with Hamas now. Now that Fatah are not in power in Gaza they are characterised as the good guys and the elected Hamas are evil according to Israel and the US. Can’t you see that Israel is using these organisations as pawns to prevent negotiations?
Whatever the short comings of Hamas, Fatah and every other opposition to Israel they pale into insignificance before the brutal and murderous agenda that the Zionists have perpetuated in the region. Israel is part of US imperialist foreign policy that socialist should oppose. In comparison, Hamas and Fatah are tiny organisations who the Palestinians have elected democratically to represent them. It’ a David and Goliath struggle and socialists should support the oppressed not wring our hands over whether they are worthy of our support. Abstract arguments that we will support the Palestinians but not Hamas when the Palestinians have elected Hamas democratically to represent them are a barrier to winning Palestinians to socialism and a diversion from fighting Zionism and US imperialism.
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 4:38 pm
I hope David hasn’t disappeared because I have a question I’d like to put to him.
He said:
You fail to report that the Israelis are warning Gazans through leaflets and text messages to evacuate before an attack in order to safeguard civilian life
My question is this: where are Gazans supposed to evacuate themselves to?
The border with Egypt is sealed afterall.
Comment by Red Maria — 10 January, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
In the 80’s Israel honoured members of the The Stern Gang who carried out massacres against the indigenous Arab population, bombed a UN mediator, supported the Italian fascists and were willing to deal with the Nazis. They were awarded medals in the ’80’s.
So before some on the left get taken in by Israeli and the US propaganda about Hamas and the PLO being terrorists let’s not forget the despicable history of the Zionists. A history of hypocrisy and murder that will never end unless it’s defeated.
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 7:09 pm
“My question is this: where are Gazans supposed to evacuate themselves to?”
They weren’t even safe in IDF designated safe houses nor UN buildings. Not even international aid workers and medical services could protect them from IDF attacks. I wonder if David still believes the IDF leaflets and text messages were anything other than Israeli propaganda.
Comment by Ray — 10 January, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
#77 Re the Vietnam War, well mostly I was too young, but on the demonstrations towards the end of the War which I did take part in I was not among the reactionaries who used to shout at protestors, but I did wonder why Trotskyists would chant “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Min” given that the same bloke had massacred one of the biggest Trotskyist parties in the world.
On similar lines whilst I was thrilled at the fall of the Shah of Iran, I was critical of those on the left who welcomed his theocratic replacement, who then proceeded to massacre those on the left, a policy continued under successive theocratic regimes there.
I’m not ringing my hands about anything. The Israelis should stop the bombing and leave Gaza, anything less is murderous and counterproductive. But not being in thrall to Hamas while believing that is hardly “playing into the hands of Israel”.
Comment by ross bradshaw — 10 January, 2009 @ 10:10 pm
“#77 Re the Vietnam War, well mostly I was too young, but on the demonstrations towards the end of the War which I did take part in I was not among the reactionaries who used to shout at protestors, but I did wonder why Trotskyists would chant “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Min” given that the same bloke had massacred one of the biggest Trotskyist parties in the world.”
Actually, the chant went, “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh! The NLF is going to win!” and it was a very catchy slogan not only chanted by Trotskyists. Never mind the US napalm and the carpet bombing, Ross, you focus on your political differences with the NLF. Joining the US in attacking the NLF didn’t help liberate the Vietnamese. If that’s what sticks in your memory about that period I can understand why you feel the need to dwell on Hamas rather than the ongoing Israeli slaughter.
“On similar lines whilst I was thrilled at the fall of the Shah of Iran, I was critical of those on the left who welcomed his theocratic replacement, who then proceeded to massacre those on the left, a policy continued under successive theocratic regimes there.”
Of course we on the left loved it when our fellow Iranian comrades and trade unionists were being murdered by Khomeini’s followers. We didn’t urge our comrades in Iran not to underestimate the political threat of the clerics. We were cheering those clerics on! Oh, how easy it is to rewrite history on a blog, eh Ross?
Back to reality. When US backed Iraq invaded Iran once again socialists weren’t going to side with the imperialists nor join in with the US condemnation of Iran.
“But not being in thrall to Hamas while believing that is hardly “playing into the hands of Israel”.”
Well, choosing a moment when Palestinians, including Hamas, are fighting for their lives to dwell on the your political differences with Hamas is helping the Zionists. It’s one of their strategies to undermine and divide support for the Palestinians and you are falling for it. Making generalised criticisms about Hamas is worthless because most of what we read about them is US and Israeli propaganda. We’re fed lies that they are terrorists who refuse to negotiate.
The truth is Ross, you’ll never be satisfied with national liberation movements because you’ll invariably have political differences with them. Despite political differences socialists need to forge unity with the oppressed not sit on the side-lines wagging our fingers at them. We will not win oppressed people to socialism unless we are a part of their struggle.
Comment by Ray — 11 January, 2009 @ 3:09 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas
“The logic of those who demand that we stop our resistance is absurd. They absolve the aggressor and occupier - armed with the deadliest weapons of death and destruction - of responsibility, while blaming the victim, prisoner and occupied. Our modest, home-made rockets are our cry of protest to the world. Israel and its American and European sponsors want us to be killed in silence. But die in silence we will not.
What is being visited on Gaza today was visited on Yasser Arafat before. When he refused to bow to Israel’s dictates, he was imprisoned in his Ramallah headquarters, surrounded by tanks for two years. When this failed to break his resolve, he was murdered by poisoning.”
Comment by Ray — 11 January, 2009 @ 3:59 am
# 87. From what I remember of my involement in protests against the Vietnam War (where I clocked up my first arrest, fined £1 for flyposting in Glasgow!) I was protesting against the American bombing, but I could not understand why Trots were chanting in favour of the man who was happy to kill them off in Vietnam. And, sorry, there were Trots (and CPers) who were pretty blinkered about the incoming theocratic regime in Iran and the CP/Tudeh group in Iran particularly paid the price. Oh, those meetings on the “unfolding revolution” in Aberdeen.
All I am saying is that we should of course oppose the Israeli invasion, bombing and occupation, but have no illusions as to the sort of world Hamas want. I can’t see how that helps Zionism.
Anyone out there remember the journal Khamsin?
Comment by ross bradshaw — 11 January, 2009 @ 10:26 am
Sorry, typo. On 84 I meant to reference 82. I am still working on foretelling the future.
Comment by ross bradshaw — 11 January, 2009 @ 10:28 am
Francis King (comment number 16 above), I don’t agree with your views but at least you have expressed them in civil terms, unlike so many other “contributors” of comments.
Francis, I wish it were true that the European left had a good record of opposing anti-semitism. This is a romanticised mis-reading of history. Yes, there is a history of internationalism which by definition opposed dwelling on national feelings (and thus prejudice). But going back to the Dreyfus Affair and even further back, the European left has yielded to a “nationalist” temptation so many times….and so often that it is a mis-reading to characterise the “essence” of European socialism as being against national prejudice. Obviously there is not enough space here to make the argument — only to raise its existence and exhort you to have another, closer look at the overwhelming evidence.
And in any event, anti-Semitism is not simple national prejudice — its deep historical roots, entangled as they are with deepest issues of religion and faith and reaction against the Jews who denied the divinity of Jesus, means that anti-Semitism is of an entirely different order than other “national feelings” here in Europe.
Finally, your posting implied that the value of fighting anti-Semitism was that it made it possible to counter Zionism. Perhaps I mis-read you. If that is what you meant, it’s putting things back to front. Countering Zionism would countering “Zionism” (by which you mean what===they belief in a Jewish state in pre-67 borders??? Or something else besides that and if so, what??) is not the reason people should oppose anti-Semitism. They should oppose it because it is the ancient murderous original sin of Europe, and leads always in the same direction…..
Comment by andrew — 11 January, 2009 @ 9:25 pm
“Obviously there is not enough space here to make the argument — only to raise its existence and exhort you to have another, closer look at the overwhelming evidence.”
If you’re going to accuse the European left of not having a good record of fighting anti-semitism and supporting nationalism then you need to be specific and not make veiled accusations that are not based on fact.
By contrast the Zionists record of opposing anti-semitism is fairly appalling. The Stern Gang who cleared the way for the founders of Israel were doing deals with the Nazi’s which isn’t surprising considering the volkish roots of Zionism in Germany.
The Zionists have used anti-semitism and the Holocaust to justify a distortion of Judaism in order to validate their nationalistic expansion and the colonialisation of land occupied by the Palestinians.
Comment by Ray — 11 January, 2009 @ 9:53 pm
Ray,
Seriously, why don’t you volunteer and go and report to Hamas in Gaza and offer your services?
If you believe that Israel is a fascist state and that the politics of Hamas are of no concern to you, then surely you should follow the example of the comrades in the Spanish civil war and sign up for battle.
Be honest, of course, tell Hamas that you are a socialist, you hate anti-semitism and racism, you have gay and Jewish friends and of course that you don’t believe in Allah - but nonetheless you support Hamas’s struggle and want to ‘fight’ alongside them.
Think about how that conversation is likely to go. Really, have a think.
Comment by Shabba Goy — 15 January, 2009 @ 3:57 pm