GEORGIA, NATO & THE SPREAD OF WAR
GEORGIA, NATO & THE SPREAD OF WAR
Friends Meeting House (Small Hall)
173 Euston Road London NW1 2BJ
6.30 pm, Thursday 14 August, 2008
with
MARK ALMOND, lecturer in History, Oxford University and expert on the Caucasus
KATE HUDSON, Chair of Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament
BORIS KAGARLITSKI, former director Institute of Globalisation Studies, Moscow
and author of, ˜Empire of the Periphery: Russia and the World System”
JOHN REES, Officer of Stop the War Coalition and author of ˜Imperialism and
Resistance”
The outbreak of war in Georgia is already a disaster for the people of the
region. It risks being turned into a still broader problem by Dick Cheney’s
threats. The conflict is in large measure the product of George Bush’s policy
of US global hegemony, in the Caucasus as in the Middle East. Attempts to
extend NATO eastwards, specifically incorporating Georgia, directly challenge
Russian interests. Please come to the meeting to discuss this latest flashpoint
in an increasingly dangerous world and forward this message to your contacts.
Bloody Good. About time and I will be going.
But I’m disappointed there was not a huge demonstration called before the meeting.
But the conflict has stopped so gives us a moment of relief for the people of Georgia and to talk about what we can do now to stop further conflict and destablisation.
Comment by Futurecast — 12 August, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
The Tomb has come alive in response to this. Check both Seymours postings and the lively debates under each. My own belief is that we are witnessing the return of multi-polar great power politics. Obviously the funniest thing about all this is George Bush complaining about ‘disproportionate’ responses. How we laughed in the Kremlin. But I would also argue that perfectly understandable vicarious pleasure in the scuppering of US hegmonic ambition may lead to a hangover. We need to differentiate this from the kind of imperial policing operations of the last ten years or so. Welcome back to multi-polar great power rivalry. After a brief champagne breakfast to celebrate the end of unilateralism we need to get back to confronting new realities.
Comment by johng — 12 August, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
What’s the odds on the “Neither Washington nor Moscow” slogan being resurrected?
Comment by Anonymous — 12 August, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
What to make of John Rees’ imminent sidelining JohnG?
Comment by anon — 12 August, 2008 @ 6:02 pm
More like “Neither Moscow nor Tbilisi”.
What to make of John Rees’ imminent sidelining JohnG?
What a stupid thing to say and what a silly person you are.
Comment by Futurecast — 12 August, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
The text is very good, but #1 - could there really have been a ‘huge demonstration’?
Agree with #5, but would like johng to say more aboiut this return of ‘multi-polar great power politics’ - the case for seeing bipolargreat power politics, but what’s the ‘multi’ element?
Comment by Matthew — 12 August, 2008 @ 6:21 pm
I would agree it’s more bipolar than multipolar atm. I think multipolar is on the way with India and China.
There could have been at least some call from some left organisation/party/united front to demonstrate outside the Russian embassy when it failed to accept a ceasefire or the Georgian one when it invaded South Ossetia.
Comment by Futurecast — 12 August, 2008 @ 6:42 pm
Also we managed a huge demo during the 2006 Lebannon-Israeli war.
Comment by Futurecast — 12 August, 2008 @ 6:42 pm
Yes China for one. India on the way (if not already). Likely tensions between Europe and the US over the extension of NATO etc. I’m engaging in risky forcasting of course, but I think this is increasingly the wave of the future. China is a larger power then Russia its worth remembering.
Comment by johng — 12 August, 2008 @ 8:35 pm
There could have been at least some call from some left organisation/party/united front to demonstrate outside the Russian embassy when it failed to accept a ceasefire or the Georgian one when it invaded South Ossetia.
The Georgian embassy possibly. I’d have been very much against demonstrating outside the Russian embassy - this would have been a clear case of providing left cover for our own government.
Comment by Jill St Custard — 13 August, 2008 @ 12:11 pm
This is a letter from the British honoury cosul in Abkhazia in the Times today:
Sir,
Writing from Abkhazia, I have to say that the western reaction to events in South Ossetia and Abkhazia presented in discussions to the UN Security Council and news channels such as CNN has been unacceptably biased.
Those, such as the US and the UK representatives of the UN and a host of commentators across the media, whose main concern seems to be the upholding of Georgia’s territorial integrity and the associated removal therefrom of Russian forces should be required to answer one simple question. Since it is a logical conclusion of this position that the authorities in Tbilisi would enjoy carte blanche to shell, slaughter and displace the South Osstetians and Abkhazians (and the other minorities who live in these regions, and, let there be no mistake, other parts of Georgia), as the Saakashvili regime demonstrated to be its aim in South Ossetia on August 7th, where in the balence of principles and priorities do they place the rights of ethnic minorities, when the state in which the international community has determined that they should live has lost all moral authority by its actions over almost two decades to excercise its right to rule over them.
Professor George Hewitt
UK honoury consul for Abkhazia.
Diplomatic reshuffle in Abkhazia I imagine.
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
Incidently I would not be in favour of a demonstration outside eiter of these embassies. To demonstrate outside the Russian embassy would be left cover for our own rulers aggressive expansionism in the region. To demonstrate outside the Georgian embassy would make it look like we were supporting the Russian military intervention. A demonstraton in central London against our rulers making the situation worse is where our responsibilities lie.
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 1:28 pm
The BBC is now reporting a convoy of Russian tanks on the road from Gori to Tiblisi.
Comment by Jim Johnson — 13 August, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
After Galloway’s écrémage de pantalons in the Daily Record over the sight of muscular anti-imperialist Russian tank drivers penetrating deep into the heart of neo-con world-conquering Georgia (”The Russian army were an awesome sight on the march” *fap* *fap* *fap*), can we expect the founding of the Start the War Coalition?
I’m looking forward to Louise’s future contributions to Jane’s Defense Weekly (”Russian tanks are made of tinfoil and stickyback plastic and are, like, really shit.”).
Comment by Dustin the Turkey — 13 August, 2008 @ 2:20 pm
“Column of tanks” or not as the case may be:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russian-troops-on-outskirts-of-georgian-town-gori-893474.html
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
Incidentally I would not be in favor of a demonstration outside either of these embassies. To demonstrate outside the Russian embassy would be left cover for our own rulers aggressive expansionism in the region. To demonstrate outside the Georgian embassy would make it look like we were supporting the Russian military intervention. A demonstration in central London against our rulers making the situation worse is where our responsibilities lie.
I absolutely disagree johng.
The original plan was to demonstrate outside both embassies. But seeing as Georgia had called a ceasefire it would have been ridiculous to have stood under the banner of:
“You started this war - now you’re attempting to end it. Well you haven’t redeemed yourself but calling a ceasefire will at least end the killing of civilians.”
You’d also need a really large banner.
But demonstrating outside the Russian embassy under the banner of “Neither Tblisi nor Moscow but unconditional peace now!” and “End the Georgian-Russian conflict” seems to me the absolutely correct position. Looking back on it we should have had “Accept a Ceasefire now”.
Some other people demonstrating there took a slightly more ‘Plucky Little Georgia’ line but speaking to a few of them this seems more a product of media bias than Georgian nationalism - the immense majority of people there were not Georgian. But my colleagues and I were there firmly with a third-campist arguement demanding an immediate end to all hostilities and destabilization from both sides.
The only problem with the demonstration was it very very small as there had been no official call for it from any political groups or organizations.
Comment by Futurecast — 13 August, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
Well I suspect these debates are null and void. Looks to me like we’re heading for war:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7559263.stm
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Which demos were these future cast?
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
And THAT in a nutshell is why futurecaste is wrong. Bush is lashing out hysterically at the diminuation of American power. He wants a world war. We must stop him. Thats our responsibility. Not demonstrating outside the Russian or Georgian embassy.
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 5:55 pm
Bush is lashing out hysterically at the diminuation of American power. He wants a world war. We must stop him. Thats our responsibility. Not demonstrating outside the Russian or Georgian embassy.
Er, what he said.
Comment by BatterseaPowerStation — 13 August, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
Personally I would like the slogan ‘Neither Washington Nor Moscow - but International Sociliasm’ to be resurrected.
Here we have yet again two supra-imperial powers sabre rattling. This is not about a few villages in Georgia; it’s about a whole entanglement of rival and competing economic interest and political power that stretches all around the globe.
This is one whole heap of scary shit.
Is it just me or does anyone else think we might be heading toward a major world war?
Comment by RC — 13 August, 2008 @ 6:35 pm
Personally I think we should be running up and down the street, whether we are SWP, whether we are Respect Renewal, whether we are the man in the moon, shouting ‘Bush wants to kill us all’. Thats the reality of the situation. Not the unpleasent ethnic war in Georgia. As in 2003 the question is, can we rise to the occassion. I think we ought to be able to.
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
21* No its not just you, People shuld check out The Opening Guns of WW3, in wich the US SWP characterised the period from from the first war in Iraq as the skirmishes and preparatory battles before a new world war, based on the declining perfrmance of US Capitalism and its need for new/ regenerated markets. This is in New International from Pathfinder Press well worth reading.
The problem with Niethjer washington or Moscow, at this point is that it fudges where responsibility for this crises lies, which is with US imperilaism. our primary role is to explain how a defeat for our own imperilaist government wherever and whenever it engages in military activity is a step toward clarifying the class nature of our own society, and is a real anti imperialist response.
Comment by non partisan — 13 August, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Agree but actually, our first responsibility is to prevent armegeddon. war with Russia? Are people ready for this? From Bush? From Brown? I don’t think so.
Comment by johng — 13 August, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
Calm down John.
You spent all last year predicting an attack on Iran.
Now its World War Three.
Get your thyroid checked and finish your PhD
Comment by Phil — 13 August, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
Non-partisan # 21: ‘Opening guns’ came out when? 1992?
johng: miscalculation is always possible, but I don’t think we’re anywhere near reaching the stage where a US President or any significant section of the ruling class actually wants or expects war with Russia in the next few weeks.
Comment by Ken MacLeod — 13 August, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
Look I don’t mind how we do it but let’s throw all of our might to oppose the ongoing wars and imperialisms asap like tomorrow?
Comment by Futurecast — 13 August, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
Can I also ask johng to calm down; you’ll give yourself a hernia there, mate.
Comment by Dustin the Turkey — 14 August, 2008 @ 12:15 am