A Good Conference - Green Party of England and Wales.
Well I am back home after a good conference. High spots for me were the International Plenary where we heard speakers from Palestine, Ogoni land, Richard Lawson from our Party and Samuel Monacada. Samuel the Venezuelan Ambassador made a brilliant speech talking about efforts to green Venezuela, on the need for social justice and grassroots democracy.
The Morning Star reported him as saying:
“Some 60 per cent of forests in Venezuela are protected as a national park and 70 per cent of our energy comes from hydro dams - energy consumption not from oil but from water.
“We have clean water in cities that involves the whole community, with water round tables to discuss how the water will be distributed. Without participation, it is impossible to have green policies. We also have plans for reforestation, with over 40 million trees already planted.”
Mark Steele spoke to a packed Green Left fringe on saturday and was very funny and radical, good on how socialist need to rethink strategy, good on climate change and good on the media. He said he had left the SWP which surprised me.
The constitutional motions I thought went the right way, there was a hot debate about cutting the 2/3rds majority needed for constitution change to 60%, a move which was defeated by conference goers. GPex is to get a womens/equality post. Expenses beyond basic travel, etc for GPEX members were kicked out.
A new progressive abortion motion went through.
The Palestine motion, supporting a boycott of Isreali goods, went through with a huge majority. It was put together by Sean Thompson, an ex-Respect member, who sadly was still too ill to make conference. Cllr Larry Sanders, who is the brother of Bernie Sanders - the only socialist Senator in the US, made an amendment which was accepted by the conference goers, ‘60 years’ became ‘40′. The motion as a whole had support from Green Party members of Jews for Justice for Palestine but was opposed by Jane Ennis, who like Sean and myself is a prominent member of Green Left. I think it is healthy that members of GL can disagree on issues but work together with out recriminations.
Here is the motion:
Justice for the Palestinians
Conference believes that the plight of the Palestinians is an issue that is central to the ongoing instability and violence in the Middle East. A just and durable peace in the Middle East is impossible without a just resolution to the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
For forty years Israel has colonised Palestine while steadily ethnically cleansing the land of its indigenous population and for forty years has illegally occupied the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights.
Israel is in violation of dozens of UN Resolutions, including Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967, calling for Israeli withdrawal from the lands occupied in the Six Day War.
There are more than 200 settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, all of them illegal under international law. Approximately 400,000 settlers live in the West Bank, including over 220,000 in Occupied East Jerusalem.
Settlement areas, bypass roads and military areas account for more than 79% of the land in the West Bank. Israel’s confiscation of Palestinian land and appropriation of water resources constitutes a theft without compensation for Palestinians. Settlements consume more than 80% of the renewable water resources in the West Bank and Gaza.
About one million Palestinians are citizens of a supposedly democratic Israel, but they are denied many rights of citizens, including the right to acquire land or property. 92 % of the land falls under the administration of the Jewish National Fund, and cannot be sold to non-Jews. As a result the Israeli Arabs who make up 19% of the population own only 4% of the land.
Israeli law allows Palestinian areas to be designated ‘state land.’ In all, there are 38 statutes in force enabling the Israeli state to expropriate Palestinian land.
In order to render already substantial ‘facts on the ground’ irreversible, the Apartheid Wall the Israeli Government is now building snakes deep into the West Bank to effectively annex the illegal settlement blocs into Israel. When finished, the separation zones could leave on the ‘Israeli’ side up to 60% of the West Bank.
Therefore we resolve to:
* Work towards a just solution based on international law and an end to Israeli occupation of the Occupied Territories
* Demand that the blockade on all Occupied Palestinian Territories be lifted and freedom of movement guaranteed
* Campaign for the release all the elected Palestinian parliamentarians kidnapped by the Israeli Army
* Reiterate our call on Israel to allow Palestinians and their families to return to their former homes, or to compensate those unable or unwilling to return.
* Support the Call for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions made by more than 170 Palestinian civil society organizations and community groups.
Reports from all over the web and if you want a taste of my speech on anti-capitalist economics take a look here http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2008/02/loan-shark-finance-for-post-modern-age.html
‘A healthy modern capitalist economy is like a system of hard drug addiction. We have to work harder and consume more, to avoid the pain of economic cold turkey. The only solution, it seems, is to increase the dose. But increasing doses only brings relief in the short term. Long term it increases tolerance, which can only be met with larger doses.
The economic approach of Gordon Brown is to simply up the dose with more privatisation, more insecurity, more consumption and more free market globalisation. New Labour’s approach- inherited from the Tories - is to make the interests of the City pre-eminent.
It isn’t just human beings who feel the pain, its the rest of nature, as well.
Which is where rainforests come in.
More consumption, more free trade and fewer barriers to corporations means the forests come tumbling down - cut for palm oil for biofuels and processed food’
Caroline’s excellent speech, which touched on economics, non violent direct action and putting the Green vision into practice, is discussed here
The amendment of the Palestine motion was a reactionary one and should have been rejected. It is a classic soft zionist maneuver to try and pretend that the problem began in 1967 rather than with the ethnic cleansing of 1948.
Comment by Adamski — 17 February, 2008 @ 5:08 pm
Was there any holding to account of Jenny Jones for her support for the police over Jean Charles De Menezes or Darren Johnson denouncing tube workers over strikes
Comment by Adamski — 17 February, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
what “was a good conference”?
Comment by richard — 17 February, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
Derek,
The Middle East motion is rubbish. The usual boycott stuff, with the critical issue of national rights for the Palestinians and Israelis not addressed. If that’s ‘good’ god help us.
Comment by paul — 17 February, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
Adamski:
The amendment of the Palestine motion was a reactionary one and should have been rejected. It is a classic soft zionist maneuver to try and pretend that the problem began in 1967 rather than with the ethnic cleansing of 1948.
Reply:
Amen brother.
Comment by John W — 17 February, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
To be fair, without the amendment, the motion makes some good points particularly highlighting the position of Palestinian “citizens” of Israel and seems to imply the right of return of Palestinians to Israel rather than just the Palestinian state
Comment by Adamski — 17 February, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
PS. I am an advocate of the One State Solution as the one most consonant with justice
Comment by Adamski — 17 February, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
Gosh, you’re so radical Adam. We’re just not worthy.
Comment by Nas — 17 February, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
Derek Wall “Mark Steele spoke to a packed Green Left fringe on saturday and was very funny and radical, good on how socialist need to rethink strategy, good on climate change and good on the media. He said he had left the SWP which surprised me”.
A major news item hidden in the article (can anyone else confirm this?)- MARK STEELE HAS LEFT THE SWP? - looks like another bad week for the SWP in the making. I do hope Mark explains more on why he left the SWP and what are his views are now on building the New Left.
Maybe he will see this and make a detailed comment.
Neil
Comment by Neil Williams — 17 February, 2008 @ 8:26 pm
LOL Neil, you are obsessed with the SWP.
Comment by anticapitalista — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
He mentioned leaving his party a few weeks ago in a very casual way…I debated with myself whether to note this on the blog but hey he was talking to an audience of a 100 plus people….so I hope he doesn’t mind.
He was very amused to meet me cos it heard the story about my reception at the REspect conference where Rania Khan attack me and the Greens…he is writing a book on the left…
In some ways if he is still in the SWP it as just as positive, I think it was great of him as a non GP member to come along and talk to us, while I am pessimistic about left unity for elections, I am very optimistic about the left in its different shades working in a practical way on practical projects.
any way hope this discussion doesn’t get into SWP bashing…I don’t think it is a useful way of spending time.
Comment by Derek Wall — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:02 pm
Comment 10: “LOL Neil, you are obsessed with the SWP”.
No far from it. But the future of the Respect projest to build a New Left in the UK will affect everybody of every age and if Mark Steel (someone who thinks on his feet and writes excellent Socialist artilces)has left the SWP this is major news. They are the people (the SWP) who have tried to destroy this project and if key people are beginning to understand this and fight in whatever way they can (and for many at this stage I accept in will not be in Respect)but work in an open inclusive way this is not obsession but important news for all who dream that we will, can and shall build a New Left in the UK (which will include many members of the Green Party I hope).
Neil
Comment by Neil Williams — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:10 pm
“obsessed with the SWP”.?
A highly visible member of the SWP apparently leaves after thirty years of membership, and it isn’t supposed to generate comment or interest?
*raised eyebrow emoticon*
Comment by Darren — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
“…he is writing a book on the left…”
PS - If it’s half as funny as Reasons To Be Cheerful, I’ll put in my pre-order now.
Comment by Darren — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:12 pm
Asked (on an email list) whether the ” “”"justice”"” for Palestinians” motion meant that the Green Party, in government, would “seek for Britain to not trade with Israel as a policy”, a boycotter replied positively. Under such leadership, Britain would join the restricted club of dictatorships who enforce a strict Boycott of Israel: Syria and Iran.
How Green and inspiring…
More here:
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=1660
Comment by Raphael Levy — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
does the ‘green-left’ have a website?
do they have a newspaper or journal?
do they issue leaflets, statements etc?
do they intervene in any workers’ movement events or struggles?
do they have a programme or a set of principles or anything?
i’ve never met or seen any ‘green-left’ member so i’d be interested to find out the answers to these questions.
many thanks,
ks
Comment by ks — 17 February, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
Yes ks everything you want to know bout green left can be found here http://www.greenleft.org.uk/
Hope it is of interest to you and that you - and others reading this excellent blog - would consider joining!
Comment by leigh — 17 February, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
Green Left have a new site here http://gptu.net/gleft/greenleft.shtml
We are part of the Ecosocialist International Network along with Socialist Resistance, Alliance for Green Socialism, Red-Green Study Group in UK….EIN here http://www.ecosocialistnetwork.org/
Joel Kovel’s book ‘The Enemy of Nature’ and John Bellamy Foster’s ‘Marx’s Ecology’ will give you the idea of what we are about.
There are several Green Left blogs including my http://www.another-green-world.blogspot.com/
The GPTU site is worth a look http://gptu.net/pssess4X/3c/hpage.shtml
Comment by Derek Wall — 17 February, 2008 @ 10:41 pm
post 15: yes raphael as a green party member i was surprised to see us lining up with the anti-semitic lobby and calling for a boycott of israeli goods etc I feel bound to ask why just israel? What about china? Why arent we calling for an economic and cultural boycott of that odious regime with its huge slave labour camps, its mobile execution vans and its annexation of tibet! Why no call for a boycott of the olympics? what about zimbabwe? what about the appalling regime in saudi arabia? what about the rotten reactionary mullah led regime in iran?
also have to ask just who is expected to follow this ‘call’ to boycott israel? Im a green party member but i certainly wont be!
Comment by leigh — 18 February, 2008 @ 10:09 am
im glad to see this contribution from derek - and his further comment that left unity in practice is something worth aiming for (rather than simply picking up on one or two points about - former - membership of the swp).
and while it is probably illusory to expect too much from the green party as a whole, through elections or otherwise, there obviously are left greens (or green lefts) who it is worth debating with.
and who it is worth encouraging in opposing the zionists (not to be confused with “lining up with the anti semitic lobby” in the last comment - a truly awful phrase and entirely unjustified from the material that preceded it).
Comment by john nic — 18 February, 2008 @ 10:19 am
Adamski asked a good question in comment #2 Isn’t anyone going to answer it?
Comment by Ellis Sharp — 18 February, 2008 @ 10:55 am
#21 Leigh you recently criticised Plaid, but doesn’t exactly the same criticisms extend to the Green Party who in power have consistently voted for attacks on local services and neoliberal cuts in services and even gone into coalition with capitalist parties like the Tories and LibDems at local governmenet level?
I find Derek Wall quite eloquent and when you read him he makes the Green Party seem like quite an attractive organisation, but I notice that he has never once addressed that there are seriously right wing elements within the Green Party. He merely glosses over this. In 2001 I briefly considered joining the Green Party (as an environmentalist) but found them to be more akin to the LibDems than Old Labour.
Turning to Leigh’s argument that the boycott of Israel (called for by Palestinian trade unions and supported by Israeli leftists such as Ilan Pappe) is anti-semitic. Why is it anymore racist than to boycott South Africa? I should note that our government is currently carrying out it’s own boycott - of Palestinian goods through the EU blockade.
I regard the question of a Boycott to be a tactical one rather than one of principles and it is up to the movement to debate what is the most appropriate form of solidarity.
But Leigh says “Why Israel? But not China?”, well firstly, the criterion of a boycott has never been how bad the human rights abuses are but rather whether it will be an effective weapon of solidarity. There were countries with far worse records than South Africa in the 80s.
Secondly, Leigh ignores the very specific role that Britain has in the Middle East in contrast with China: From the Balfour declaration through to Britain being the only country to support the US in blocking a ceasefire during the Lebanon War. Britain currently heavilly arms Israel and is one of it’s main backers in the world. Britain was a key player in the fraudulent peace processes that attempted to repackage the occupation.
Surely given Britain’s role in Israel/Palestine, the social movements here have a historic responsibility to build solidarity with the people of Palestine?
Comment by Adamski — 18 February, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
Yet again, an obsession with gesture politics that bedevils the Left, I am an internationalist, but I also think things are getting very grim for millions here in the UK. For instance, with N/L’s neo-liberal welfare ‘reforms’ ‘we are witnessing the end of a rights based welfare system in the UK, coupled with a move to a privatised, coercive and minimal U.S model with only the big private training companies benefiting. Disabled people, single parents and the unemployed are all affected. Did the G/P conference discuss this?, they should have
Comment by frenetic — 18 February, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
ah, Green party.
Thanks for changing the headline as I was unclear.
Comment by richard — 18 February, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
If you are going to chose a pickaxe, make sure it works on steel.
Hoho.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 18 February, 2008 @ 9:32 pm
Post # 15 etc re Israel.
I and others on the Green Left have campaigned in solidarity with the East Timorese, oppressed by Indonesian occupation, where Britain sold arms to Suharto’s dictatorship. Today we also campaign against BAE’s arms deals with the Saudi-Arabian dictatorship. I have campaigned against investment in the Burmese dictatorship. I was active against South Africa’s brutal Aparthied system. I have protested against Turkeys oppression of the Kurds. I have stood against Britains bloody interventions from Ireland to Iraq.
So why should I leave Israel alone?
Israels ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, its occupation of the West Bank, with its wall, settlements and ethnically exclusive road systems, its seige of the people of Gaza - all this is an international injustice of the first order. It is in violation of UN resolutions and is what Nelson Mandela has called “the greatest moral issue of the age”
But Israel is different. On no ther issue do we have people proudly defending this ethic cleansing and ethnic supremacist state - and denouncing those who of us who campaign against this racism as ‘racists’ ourselves! We get called ‘anti-semitic’ even if we have fought the real anti-semites - Europes Neo-Nazis - on the streets. We get called ‘anti-semitic’ even if we are proudly from a Jewish ancestry. But we know we are not anti-semites - we know why we cannot exempt the Israeli state from our general opposition to racism and injustice, just because the founders of that state were also victims of racism and injustice. So I am proud that the Green Party has taken a stand.
I myself would rather target any boycott against particular west bank settlements, rather than Israel as a whole. I’d boycott firms like agrexo which directly exploit the occupation, rather than all Israeli firms. Likewise a targetted boycott of colleges like the one at Ariel, built in an illegal settlement, rather than all Israeli academia. But to the extremist supporters of the Israeli ethno-supremacist state these are unoticable nuances, I’m sure.
Comment by Larry — 18 February, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
The decision of the Green Party to support a boycott of Israel is extremely welcome. I say that as a member of the Alliance for Green Socialism! Those who criticise it have yet to explain what other methods they would advocate to put pressure on Israel to accept its Palestinian citizens and those under occupation as equals (because noone can pretend that Israel is going to give the West Bank back or relinquish its hold over Gaza).
For too long people have made attention to the equivalent of apologists for South African apartheid rather than Palestinians. Palestinians are desperate for change and are demanding boycott. As an oppressed people we should listen to them and I applaud the fact that the Green Party has listened to them.
Those hypocrites, because they are mostly hypocrites, who say there shouldn’t be an academic boycott for example of Israel, prefer to ignore the boycott of Palestinians, the McCarthyite treatment of people like Nizar Hassan. The Zionist Engage site is only concerned with academic freedom when it concerns Israeli Jews. Freedom for Palestinians has never been on their agenda. http://www.haaretzcom/hasen/spages/954371.html
If an oppressed people, be it Black South Africans or Palestinians ask us for their support, we should give it uncritically. It is not surprising that people like Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kassrils of the ANC see in Israel a continuation if not worse of South African apartheid.
To those who cry ‘anti-Semitism’ I have but 2 comments. Firstly by crying anti-Semitism against those who are not anti-Semitic you only legitimise the real anti-Semitism.
Secondly if you are so happy with the position of Arabs in Israeli society, would you be happy if British Jews were treated the same in this country?
Tony Greenstein
Comment by Tony Greenstein — 19 February, 2008 @ 12:44 am
Leigh
just carry on doing sweet ## about the situation in Israel. To claim standing with the palestinians is somehow anti- semitic says more about you than anything else. I well remember a right wing member of my family many years ago saying why do you boycott south african stuff but not russian stuff. It was clear- that person was about defending apartheid and I am afrad Leigh as wiht all your comments u are keen to side with the right. U will be happy in the Greens for many a year.
Comment by jj — 19 February, 2008 @ 12:51 am
Is this the same Green Party that used to have David Icke as a leader?
I am sure Icke is clapping loudly at the disgraceful boycott policy they passed.
What a horrible little party the Greens are.
Comment by Mikey — 19 February, 2008 @ 3:04 am
Mikey (apologist for apartheid and ethnic cleansing) writes:
What a horrible little party the Greens are.
Reply:
No, what a horrible little country Israel is.
Comment by John W — 19 February, 2008 @ 8:14 am
jj i was a member of the anti-apartheid campaign 25 years ago - i had the priveledge of meeting desmond tutu when he came to wales in 1986! I dont need any lectures from people like you about fighting discrimination or injustices in the world! As a lifelong ant-nazi i have unfortunately encoutered many british fascists who echo people like yourself in their views on israel ie they do not recognise israel’s right to exist and wish to see it destroyed! This usually being dressed up with the weasely worded ’single state’ garbage!
I have every sympathy with the palestinian people and hope they will one day indeed achieve statehood - as they were of course offered by israeli premier barak in 2000 only for arafat to casually turn it down! I have every sympathy with the palestinians who are being routinely arrested or murdered by the murderous corrupt thugs of hamas and fatah! If you are really that concerned with the plight of palestinians you should be calling for a boycott of the corrupt hamas regime in gaza where vital resources have been wasted on guns and other sudnry weapons!! The point remains - and which no one here has answered - why single out israel a country where socialists and trade unionists can organise freely for a so called boycott? There are far far worse nations in the world than israel - many in the middle east - so why no campaign against them? What about the brutish despotic absolutist regime in saudi arabia with its routine beheadings, its entrenched discrimination against women and gay people and its barbaric penal system? Or the murderous regime in sudan? Which human rights watch estimates has slaughtered almost a quarter of a million people? What about the obnoxious regime in china with its huge gulags and millions condemned to slave labour often in the most appaliing conditions! Where to suggesr trade unionists and socialists organise freely would see you dissappear to one of china’s nicest jails! Or iran where gay people are routinely lynched and the mullah led theocracy has been busy smashing iran’s trade unions?
This ill advised pointless boycott is left anti-semitism and nothing more! Perhaps the worst thing about is is that its protagonists - such as the ‘fulltime’ middle class activists who hijacked the GP conference last week - dont even have the bottle to admit it!
Me right wing? Er.. what bout your former comrade who’s just joined the tories in tower hamlets?
Comment by leigh — 19 February, 2008 @ 8:59 am
leigh:
As the author of the motion at the Green Party Conference I assume that your accusation that its protagonists are left anti-semites is directed at me (among others). Now, I joined the Ant-Apartheid Movement almost from its inception (in fact my first ever political act was to send a week’s pocket money when the boycott campaign was launched) and have been an active anti-racist all my life, so perhaps even you might realise that I resent such hysterical and baseless attacks. Ad hominem abuse such as that demeans you rather than your opponents.
The reason why those who support the cause of the Palestinians as an oppressed people are campaigning for boycott is because that is a course of action which the Palestinians themselves are calling for, just as the campaign for a boycott of South African goods was as a result of a call for such a boycott by the ANC. I look forward to the day when the Saudi people and the workers of China start to organise opposition to their vile rulers, and when they do I hope that we will all act in solidarity with them too - on the basis of organising practical responses to their specific calls for support, rather than us deciding what is good for them.
It must have been a memorable day when you met a man as decent and brave as Desmond Tutu - would you today accuse him of anti-semitism as a result of his current condemnation of the oppression of the Palestianians and his support of the boycott?
Comment by Sean — 19 February, 2008 @ 10:42 am
Israel is a racist apartheid state.
It’s foundation was based on the violent dispossession and murderous expulsion of the Palestinian people from their historic homeland, Palestine in 1948.60 YEARS AGO! Thus it is the 60th commemoration of the anniversary of the NAKBA this year. 60 years of Palestinian dispossession and oppression and occupation by Israel.
It is therefore a serious limitation that the Green party voted by a majority, as I understand it, to only recognise that Israel has colonised Palestine and the Palestinian people for only 40 years as against 60 years, which seems to me to be a great distortion and minimising of the full extent of the crime and war crimes committed by Israel against the Palestinian people.
Leigh,you seem to be proud of your years of anti-aparthied activity and the fact you have met you Desmond Tutu but seem to be apparently blissfully unaware that he is vehmently opposed to the horribly racist aparthied state which is today’s Israel and it’s continued brutal persecution of the Palestinian and Arab people.
Lest we forget that poor little Israel was well and truly in support of the vicious South African aparthied regime and vice versa as part of the US/UK imperialist block.Let’s not forget that poor little defenseless Israel helped train US backed right wing fascist death squads in Guatemala and El Salvador throughout the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s which were responsible for the deaths and massacres of thousands of people and it continues today in it’s grubby little role in Colombia, arming and training and giving assistence their very own murderous terrorist paramilitary and military death squads responsible for the deaths, torture and disappearence of thousands of trade unionists,activists and citizens opposed to the US/UK backed right wing Colombian regime.
The same can be said of Israel’s support for other vile regimes such as the imperialist backed murderous US/UK backed Suharto dictatorship in Indonesia and the murderous US/UK backed dictatorial monarchy in Nepal(soon to be deposed).
It would appear that your understanding of Israel is somewhat limited as was and is your understanding of South African apartheid. When you refer to ‘Israeli left wing activists and trade unionists’ in Israel who do you refer to? While I would not deny that such individuals and groups have freedom to demonstrate in Israel,your point clearly illustrates perfectly the racist and aparthied nature of the Israeli state, as the same rights are not extended to Palestinians both living under siege in Israel and under brutal military occupation within the West Bank and under the criminal Western imperialist backed siege in Gaza.
Lest we forget, it’s illegal invasions of Lebanon and the multitude of war crimes and atrocities committed there over decades resulting in the bloody massacre and hideous murder of thousands of Palestinans refugees and Lebanese citizens.
Leigh, you say you have every sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but you appear to have a very poor and seriously limited grasp of the nature of their oppression.
How appalling and grotesque then that this year Israel is to be “celebrating” 60 years of it’s continuing brutal repression, dispossession and occupation of the Palestinan people!
Global sanctions against the racist aparthied Israeli state are needed now more than ever.
Comment by Big baby — 19 February, 2008 @ 11:09 am
Hi Leigh,
You say you met Archbishop Desmond Tutu in Wales in 1986 - then you would be interested in a recent controversy about him and Israel. Last year it was calimed that Tutu was an anti-semite for supporting the Palestinian cause. He was banned from speaking at an American University. The justice and peace programme at University of St. Thomas in Minnesota had inivited him, but then under pressure from extremist supporters of Israeli state policy the University withdrew the inivatation and fired the director of the justice and peace programme! Again when Tutu spoke in Boston in October 2007 he was met by protests calling him an anti-Semite! A group called Christians and Jews United for Israel demonstrated against his visit.
Thus in your rant in post #32, where you accuse the Green Party of anti-semitism for supporting justice for the Palestinians has a familiar and incredible ring to it. I fear that you stand on the side of a worrying trend of slander of many sincere anti-racists. Do you think Tutu is an Anti-Semite now as well?
Here is what Tutu has said:
“I’ve been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about”.
With reference to your other comments in your post - you talk of other regimes more worthy of our opposition than Israel, in an attempt to excuse Israel. Please read my post # 26. As a fellow green party member I hope you will approach this debate in a spiritof understanding rather than propaganda.
Myself and other Greens and Socialists have protested against many oppressive regimes - including Britians bloody role in countries from Ireland to Iraq. I supported the protests against Indonesia’s Suharto dictatorship when it oppressed the people of East Timor, and BAE sold it arms to do so. Saudi-Arabia is also the rightfull target of our anti arms trade campaigns. I protested against Thatchers arming of Saddam Hussein when he gassed the Kurds at Halabja in 1988. I have protested against Turkeys treatment of its Kurdish population. I have protested against investment in the Burmese dictatorship. And of course I also took part in the Ant-Aparthied movement around South Africa.
But you expect us to exempt Israel from protest, hoping to deflect criticism with false accusations of anti-Semitism. You wish us to ignore the issue of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, and to turn a blind eye to the current illegal colonisation of the West bank. I cannot, however, in all conscience ignore the issue of Palestine.
Comment by Larry — 19 February, 2008 @ 11:10 am
leigh you are asking too much morals and reasonability from people who support the Butcher of Kronstadt, Trotsky.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
Hi Fabian,
Can you do more than ad hominen attacks? Do you support illegal settlements on the west bank? I oppose the British governments racist and oppressive policies. Do you oppose what your state does in your name? Or are you a government stooge?
Your reference to Krondstant suggests a knowledge of Anarchism. Have you ever come accross the excelent group ‘anarchists against the wall’?
http://www.awalls.org/
I met some of them recently - great people. Inspired me. Good to see not all people in Israel defend state brutality.
Comment by Larry — 19 February, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
Cool, Larry. But what are you doing in a socialist blog, though? you would be first in line when the revolution comes, you know?
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
You still believe in the sacred revolution, right? the one who will right all wrongs, bleed all the colors into one, justify every little thing we have done wrong, wash our sins? Or have I missed anything?
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
“Or are you a government stooge?”
Well, if I may tell you, I was always a very bad person. Everybody hated me in Argentina in spite that I was well-funded. That is why I chose to immigrate to the one country in the world which is populated by bad persons like me. And I am quite happy here.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Larry, Zionism is an irrational racist ideology - so there’s no point in trying to engage in rational discussion with Zionists. They couldn’t care less about Palestinians rights, human or otherwise, since they believe Arabs are basically sub-human scum and therefore can be treated as such.
Why do you think ex-leftists like Cohen and Hitchens crossed the line? Their increasingly hysterical clash of civilisation’ rants are intimately connected to their Zionist outlook. This, in turn, has led them to identify with Israeli foreign policy objectives, thence seamlessly into the pro-imperialist camp and away from any semblance of principled socialism.
Comment by Doug — 19 February, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
And if you don’t believe me, perhaps Leigh can explain why, in his list of progressive causes, there’s no reference to opposition to the Iraq War? Scratch a pro-war Leftist (a contradiction in terms anyway), you’ll find a Zionist scumbag underneath.
Comment by Doug — 19 February, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Sure, Larry. As I most certainly believe that Arabs are sub-human scum (and nothing I can say will ever convince you otherwise, since you are forbidden to “engage” with me), you are justified in treating me like if I were sub-human scum. Like Doug, who doesn’t even talk directly to me. He is well learnt!
Remember that a socialist should not try to engage in rational discussion with Zionists, Larry. And a member of cult should extend that same treatment to his own family.
Best,
Fabian
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
of “a” cult.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
Hi again Fabian - I’m happy to engage with you and almost anybody else in discussion. That’s how we can make progress, hopefully. Plus I’ve had a nice bottle of Red, so am feeling all happy.
I would like to make links with people in Israel to reach mutual understanding, and would like people to build bridges across all national divisions. That’s especially important in Israel / Palestine.
You ask post #38 if I believe in revolution. Well, I think we need to move society beyond capitalism if we are to live sustainably on the planet.
How can we transcend capitalism and reach a higher form of civilisation? That’s a genuine question, as I don’t really know the answer.
Yes, revolutions have so far ended in violence and tyranny, devouring their own children. Revolutions successfully helped create capitalist nation states - in England 1649, France 1789, Russia 1917. But can they abolish capitalism, nations and states? They have not done so yet!
I don’t have an answer. All our left wing traditions - Anarchism, Marxism, Social Democracy etc - have failed so far. I think Zionism has also failed to create a better society. But I don’t think this means complacently accepting the capitalist status quo, which breeds ecocide and genocide. There has gotta be some way out of this place?
Post #39 you say “Everybody hated me in Argentina ….That is why I chose to immigrate to the one country in the world which is populated by bad persons like me”. Well that either sounds a bit self hating and fucked up, or its just badly articulated irony! But I can understand. If it wasn’t for the eviction of the indigenous people and subsequent sixty years of war and militarism Israel sounds like pure heaven. Kleyzmerim in the Mediterranean sunshine! How lovely that would be! Although Israel does seem to have lost the best qualities of Jewishness and become a sort of suburb of fat white Americans on steroids with barbed wire! Oh dear!
I’m also a fully paid up member of another perennial scapegoat minority ‘the gays’. We shared the camps! How inclusive the Reich was! Our cute little pink triangles and yellow stars! At this moment, I’d love to be in a certain queer establishment near the beach in Tel-Aviv, which sounds like more a more fun place than say, Riyadh!(Although I’d have to batter a few ultra-orthodox nutters as well as a few homophobic Jihadis).
Seriously, I get sick of the hatred here in Europe as well. But I don’t think we can escape from it by conquering a bit of the third world, evicting its population, and establishing a Gay state with the backing of a homophobic empire that wishes to use us as a proxy! If you see my analogy here! So I’m gonna have to turn around a fight my fascist oppressors, uniting with my straight brothers and sisters! Not always easy, but then we are probably all fucked on this planet, and I might as well do the right thing.
Post #42 you say “I most certainly believe that Arabs are sub-human scum (and nothing I can say will ever convince you otherwise, since you are forbidden to “engage” with me)” Well, I’m sure that’s just the irony again - am I right?
Well, you are in the right place at the right time to make a difference to all this horrific ethno-racist shit! That’s why my friends here: are so important (they are not really ‘anarchists’ just sincere Israeli kids getting battered by the IDF). Much better placed than all us so called Euro “anti-semitic” leftists shouting from the sidelines!
Best wishes, Fabian!
Shalom / Salaam
Comment by Larri — 19 February, 2008 @ 10:12 pm
Here is that website again - seems to have been lost from the last post.
http://www.awalls.org/
Comment by Larri — 19 February, 2008 @ 10:17 pm
Larri: what you call “ethno-racist shit” is my right to self-determination and, lets be clear, a large part of my own identity as Jew. I am sorry that you and your friends did not found a gay state, I would surely love to visit! (there is no irony here). Maybe part of the problem is that gays have not shared history, tradition, language, culture, religion, and memory of their own self-rule in the past, like Jews.
Maybe if in the end you dare to found your own state, and decide that every gay who is in trouble (or metzuká like we say here) may find a place there free of persecutions, beatings, beheadings, stonings, throwing from the roof or simply sneers and wicked comments from your own party members (like a gay friend of mine suffered in Argentina at the hands of “anti-fascists” from the Workers Party - Partido Obrero), you will be accused of having “sexo-racist shit” laws or something. That accusation surely won’t come from me.
I have to say that I am not a socialist, so probably I am not your kind of Zionist. You should speak with the guys from Hashomer Hatzair, they are Socialist Zionists, and they are also pretty confused like you regarding the way to trascend capitalism.
Best,
Fabian
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 11:20 pm
BTW, like I said the other day, I come from the Third World. My great-great-great-grandfather, sick of the Russian pogroms, was helped by the Baron Hirsch to establish himself in an agrarian colony in Argentina in 1895. Fifteen years before all that, the Argentinian government exterminated the larger portion of Argentins’s native population. I certainly understand what you are saying, but it seems that nobody really cares there. There is a great Argentinian Rock scene, plus amazing literature, and stuff, and all this amazing culture is helped by the fact that there aren’t small groupuscules in every country trying to discuss Argentina’s right to exist. On the contrary, I have found that most of the foreign groups interested in Argentina love to talk about Jorge Luis Borges and -less but my favourite- Julio Cortázar.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 19 February, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
Ah well, Fabian, - at least we have established some mutual understanding here.
You just said (albeit in a different order of words): that your “right to self-determination and, a large part of your own identity = ethno-racist shit”. As it always is with the poison of nations and nationalism! But it need not be - the treasures of Judaism and Jewish history need not be caught up in ethno-racism. I dream of a Middle East rich in all its cultures living in tolerance and diversity, rather than one people ruling and displacing another.
But more than this - with nationalism also something else is lost. We are also always oppressed by those who claim to be of our ‘identity’. That’s why the Jewish Bund fought the Zionists before the Shoa. Most strikingly it was why in Warsaw for the Ghetto uprising of 1942 the resistance had first to dispense with the Judenrat before they could begin their great and vindicating battle. (I once was privileged to meet an old Ghetto fighter who told me this story - check out the writings of Marek Edelman as the nearest document). Indeed, that’s why today the Palestinian Ghetto fighters will have to dispense with their Hamas and Fatah misrulers before they can liberate themselves from ‘your’ state! (But it never was ‘your’ state. No state is our true friend).
When I spoke of a hypothetical ‘gay zionism’, I spoke not with an illusion that it would be my liberation, but with certainty that were it to come about it would be my future prison! There would be no cool party there - just a militarised suburbia. Already, I know my enemy is not just the homophobe, but the Gay business owner, those who run the ‘pink economy’ that enslaves us to the fetish of ‘eternal youth’ and competitive alienation! So it is with all oppressed groups. The enemy is always ‘at home’.
That is, I suppose always the problem with nationhood. In some ways, a large part of what was amazing and awesome about Judaism was lost with the founding of the state of Israel. All nations labour under the totalising illusion that they have a ’shared history, language and tradition’ - which masks and annihilates so much diversity and the great mysteries into the prosaic walls of state power and homogenised suburbia. That’s why the Yiddish was eclipsed by Hebrew, and much more besides - Marxism as well!
Yes, your history of Zionism in Argentina is fascinating - thank you! But of course Latin America is now aflame with the rising of the indigenous! Argentina is questioned! As it happens, I currently have links with the Mapuche struggle! And not just in Argentina and Chile. I am working with people fighting from Bolivia to Ecuador and Venezuela! Of course we don’t want to expel the descendants of the conquistadors and subsequent colonos! We want a new culture of equality and radical novelty! And the same for a new middle east that is Jewish / Muslim / Atheist / Christian / Buddhist / whateverelseisfun ! But you can if you wish stick to your ossified fake zionist certainties and culture of fear and paranoia - and become like any other fat white colonialist settlers. Just a shame to miss the party, dudes! 2,000 years of future history beckons!
Shalom Israel
and Goodbye, Fabian! farewell!
XXX
Comment by Larri — 20 February, 2008 @ 12:38 am
“Argentina is questioned!”
Sorry, but are you out of your mind? The Mapuches can question whatever they want, they are too few to really matter. If you think that, for example, Argentinian public schools will start teaching Mapuche as a second language, you seriously have been reading Indymedia too much. Why don’t you pay a visit, man? I find that you have serious lagunae regarding the countries you talk about: Israel “a sort of suburb of fat white Americans on steroids with barbed wire”? Man, have you ever been in Rishon LeTzion, Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beersheva or Jerusalem? BTW, I detect a hint of racism against Americans in your words. Do you think that an American cannot be thin, or that everybody is on steroids or something? What would you say if I referred to gays as “old hags with a collection of dildoes up their asses”? You should take care with your language, remember what I told you about my gay leftist friend in Argentina. Have you read “El beso de la mujer araña” of Manuel Puig? You should.
“You just said (albeit in a different order of words): that your “right to self-determination and, a large part of your own identity = ethno-racist shit”. ”
No, I said that you consider that to be “ethno-racist shit”, not that I considered thus.
“That’s why the Jewish Bund fought the Zionists before the Shoa.”
What happened to the Bund?
“That is, I suppose always the problem with nationhood. In some ways, a large part of what was amazing and awesome about Judaism was lost with the founding of the state of Israel”
This is utter nonsense. Israel is home to the larger more creative Jewish community in the world. I have never encountered more different types of Judaism than in Israel. Moreover, it is growing intelectually while the diaspora is shrinking. You have to revise your ideas here, seriously. I come from Argentina, a place where a Jew is a leftist who gets together with his friends in clubs, and devotes his weekends to sports and leisure. Some holidays, this Jew gets together with family to celebrate and eat together. Or at least that was the situation before. Pretty uniform stuff. Everybody the same. Nowadays half of the Jews have intermarried and they have become self-conscious and don’t want to push the Holidays meetings too much, go to their partner’s parents house on Christmas, forgot about Jewish sports clubs, and maintain that they are Jews (but don’t do absolutely anything Jewish). Their identity is held only by the memory of their mother’s latkes. That is all. Of course, if someone calls them “Jewish shit” they know they have to beat the guy up, but that is all. Purely negative and impossible to sustain.
When I was there, I was a tour guide for young American Jews that came in a group to solidarize with the Jewish community in the middle of the economic crisis. To help. So they ask me, “when we go to the synagogue will be able to see your friends?” And I replied, casually, “no, ha ha, young Jews don’t get together in the Sinagogue”. Where do they get together? Nowhere. That is the sad truth. You think that the Diaspora has diversity? On the contrary, Jews are dissapearing from there.
“which masks and annihilates so much diversity and the great mysteries into the prosaic walls of state power and homogenised suburbia. That’s why the Yiddish was eclipsed by Hebrew,”
And in Argentina the Yiddish was eclipsed by the Spanish (which, contrary to the Hebrew, is not a Jewish language at all, so who lost more?). In Argentina only old people know Yiddish. So much for diversity! In addition, you are putting a higher value to the preservation of a language than to the preservation of the people who speak that language. I find that the latter is more important than the former. Culture is unpredictable. Yiddish can return in Israel (you expect that with Mapuche, so I don’t see how you can deny that the same can happen with Yiddish), but the people cannot be revived from the ashes. That is more important.
And if you really like Yiddish, study it at the university. Practice it with your friends. Do it yourself, don’t expect that the state(or its dissapearance) will help you in this.
Seriously, to argue that Israel has less Jewish diversity than the Diaspora is to have never been in Israel. Have you been in Israel?
Best,
Fabian
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 20 February, 2008 @ 8:03 am
As an anecdote: my mother is a widow. She used to speak yiddish with my father. She lives in Argentina, and she can’t speak yiddish with anyone now. When she came to visit me in Israel, we went to Mea Shearim, the orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem, where she was able to speak yiddish to every passerby and shop owner.
Israel is too diverse, even for me. Sometimes I find myself asking where can I find a Jew like me that is not an Argentinian. left-wing, right-wing, ethiopian, russians, latinos, azkenazi, sefardi, yemenite, traditional, modern, gay, straight, religious, non-religious, goth, emo, punk, instalators, managers, taxi drivers, pizza guys, and all possible combinations between them all Jews. All Jews! Much more diverse than in Argentina, where all your Jewish friends from high school are white azkenazi apolitic (this replaced left-wing in the last decades), secular, non-traditional proffesionals or programmers.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 20 February, 2008 @ 8:14 am
Lastly: you talk about the loss of yiddish. What about the gain of Hebrew? Books, films, lectures at the university in that language, everyday use, etc. etc. Why was it not a loss that Hebrew was only used to read the Bible, when it was able to open a whole new world?
Think about it.
Best
Fabian
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 20 February, 2008 @ 8:25 am
It sounds like many posting here would like the kibbutz I live on;
We are part of the global ecovillage network and in 2006 won the Award for Ecovillage Excellence.
http://www.kibbutzlotan.com/blog/?p=24
We created the regional recycling center which led to a 60% reduction in Garbage collected and dumped at the local landfill site.
We have a number of different educational projects underway which include;
1) The Green Apprenticeship which combines study with practical skills. Topics include ecological construction, permaculture, community economics, etc
2) A new programme called Peace, Justice and Environment
Other projects include joint educational seminars with Israeli-Arab, Israeli-Jewish and Palestinian Arab schoolchildren. Despite our intention these have not run recently because of restrictions on Palestinian entry into Israel and Palestinians being more reluctant to engage with Israelis and a desire to avoid being seen to be collaborating with the occupation.
More information on the various projects can be found on the Lotan Center for Creative Ecology website.
The kibbutz next door to us (Keturah) houses the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies
I am astounded that the Green Party has voted to support BDS. Its so counterproductive. Boycott will kill off the green movement in Israel.
If Lotan is unable to export agricultural produce then virtually all our educational programs will cease. We use our profits from agriculture to cover the losses we make from running programmes such as the Green Apprenticeship, or the mud-building seminars.
The economic impact of BDS may even force us to abandon our attempt to built a viable alternative to the unsustainable consumer culture on which modern capitalism depends. The same applies to Keturah and the countless other ecological communites or organic farms which are springing up all over Israel.
Boycotts won’t lead us closer to peace but further away. Peace is only possible through positive, interactions between the Jewish and Arab communities in Israel/Palestine. Instead of seeking to support dialogue and interaction, the Green Party is demanding that the whole world stop speaking to one side in this conflict and it’s simply stupid.
BTW some thoughtful stuff Fabien.
Comment by Stephen — 20 February, 2008 @ 4:10 pm
Hi Stephen,
It depends how boycotts are carried out. In the UK many groups acting on the issue carry out only specific and targeted boycotts.
These try to only target the products of illegal settlements on the West Bank and therefore are not aimed at all Israeli institutions. So for example with the agri-food sector activists target Carmel Agrexco which exports lots from these West Bank settlers.
Likewise with the discussions of the academic boycott - activists proposed focusing on specific institutions like the ‘College of Judea and Samaria’ in the Ariel settlement - rather than isolating all Israeli academia. We would want links with progressives.
Other targets are companies involved in the military or other repressive and unethical activities.
Israeli institutions promoting justice and peace with the Palestinians should be engaged with. So we may want to collaborate with institutions like yours. Encourage the positive, - isolate the negative. So we would want an international movement that includes the progressive sections of Israeli society in isolating the settlements.
But with your example - when it comes to exporting organic produce, organic should also mean localised production with a low carbon footprint. Regardless of questions of the occupation, exporting food thousands of miles is unecological, whether that’s from Morocco or Israel. So its not a good example.
With environmental questions, its important to understand how ecological consequences are also weapons of war. The occupation has a huge negative environmental impact. For instance, there is an awareness of the issues of water injustice connected with the settlements.
What do you think of the settlements and the isolation of Palestinian villages by the growing architecture of occupation - the settler only roads, the wall etc?
Shalom Aleichem / As-Salaam-Alaikum
Comment by Larry — 20 February, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
“Regardless of questions of the occupation, exporting food thousands of miles is unecological, whether that’s from Morocco or Israel. So its not a good example.”
Larry, does this mean that you are not going to buy from Palestinian produce either? Most of what they produce is food (olive oil, dates).
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:31 am
My own take on the issue of the campaign for the reduction of the carbon footprint, if I may say so, is that is a dangerous delusion. Its effect will be to prevent the Third World from developing. There is no other way in the present situation, for the Third World to get hard currency if not by exporting their produce to the markets where the prices are higher (the First World). To forbid that, is to condemn the Third World to ruin. Of course, to do it completely is impossible. The First World cannot produce its own food in the necessary quantities and qualities. It would end wasting more resources (and polluting the environment) than the traditional way of shipping the food. So the campaigns will be selective: yes to a boycott of Israel, no to a boycott of Palestine.
Some carbon footprints will be kosher, and others will not, depending on political affiliations.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 1:05 pm
Fabian from Israel promulgates an analysis that has obviously pulled out of his rectum.
The fact is that the so-called Third World has been kept in a state of underdevelopment in order to sustain living standards in the West, including that which are currently enjoyed in the apartheid state of Israel, living standards which are as obscene as they are ecologically unsustainable. Over consumption is a reflection of over production under capitalism. This is precisely the argument socialism and a planned economy configured to meet people’s needs rather than one configured to produce commodities for profit. This overconsumption is fuelled by an artificial demand created by an advertising industry which controls our mass media.
The solution to the crisis of Third World poverty does not lie in continuing their state of servitude to the West as a source of cheap resources, labour and manufactured goods. It lies in ending the economic penetration of global corporations and in helping them develop their domestic economies with the help of a massive injection of reparations for the centuries of western colonialism and neo-colonialism which have retarded their development.
As for Israel, the Green Party are to be commended for their commitment to BDS. However, the original sin visited on the Palestinians took place with the Nakba in 48. This is why, inevitably, the only viable solution to this issue is one-state. This will only happen when Zionism is broken and the Jews reject it as the racist, supermacist ideology it is.
This is the only way forward for everyone in the region regardless of ethnicity, race, creed, or religion.
Comment by Veritas — 21 February, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Hi Larry,
Firstly, I appreciate your sentiments, I agree co-operate with progressives and isolate extremists.
Yet most people in favor of boycotts are not talking about this, they want to boycott all Israelis and appear willing to work with any group opposed to Israel regardless of how extremist of reactionary these movements may be (e.g. “We are all Hezbollah now”).
Most people in favor of boycott seem to want the Utopian option of the one-state solution. One state is a fantasy in the current conditions- its not wanted by either party in this dispute. Indeed, the only people in favor of one-state are the extremists on both sides who imagine one-state for their own ethnic group at the exclusion of the other side; not a socialist or democratic state of all its citizens. Such an inclusive state may arise two or three generations after a peace treaty, but right now Israelis and Palestinians want to separate from one another.
We should focus on a solution which ends the killing and the hatred and then worry about how to move onto any further stages in reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians.
When talking about exports, I was primarily thinking of our date crop. Most of our produce is for local consumption but the date crop is for both local and export markets. Our economy is very fragile and although it is improving we are still reliant on exported produce to maintain our way of life.
I think its all down to priorities, we are trying to live in a way that puts more into the environment than we take out. Part of this is through the way we farm the land, how we lead lives which consume fewer resources, how we look to generate electricity using renewable sources of energy and the ways we can recycle existing resources (my coffee table is made from broken toilet cisterns and an old cupboard door).
Another part is the educational programs we run which enable participants to take the skills and knowledge they gain and put them to use in their own communities. Examples include a former Green Apprentice who is shortly to open an organic farm and use of the cheap and sustainable mud-building techniques in Negev Bedouin communities.
These all go some way to offset the less ecological aspects of our way of life, yet we are still living at considerably less cost to the environment than if we all packed up and moved to the city.
My take on your points about the occupation;
1) There is no such thing as a settler-only road (others refer to these as Jewish-only roads); there are roads which Israelis can use but Palestinians can not. These roads can be used by all Israelis whether they are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Bahai, Druze, etc. I have a problem with these because I think the settlements which these roads serve shouldn’t be there. But whilst they are and whilst they are populated by living human beings I think this is the best way to protect the lives of the residents of the settlements.
2) The barrier (something like 97% fence, 3% wall) separates Palestinians from their lands this is true, but I think the dramatic fall in the number of suicide bombings since the barrier was built speaks for itself. Of course its not the ideal solution (or route) but in the absence of a governing body in the Palestinian Authority which is either willing or able to confront the extremists in their midst it is one which works. Hopefully in the event of a peace treaty it will be dismantled or moved to the agreed upon international boundaries wherever they end up being.
3) The settlements need to be dismantled. The issue of the settlements is not as clear cut as it is often presented. The overwhelming majority of settlers are not in the territories for ideological reasons but for economic ones. Most settlers will leave voluntarily once there is an economic reason to do so. Poverty amongst all sectors in Israel is widespread and I whilst I don’t agree with those that choose to live over the green line I can understand why a family faced with a choice between poverty inside the green line and a higher standard of living two or three kilometres east (most settlements are close to the green line) chooses to avoid poverty. The remaining nutters in places like Kiryat Arba is of course a different story but one that the government here is strong enough to deal with when the time comes.
I genuinely believe the government doesn’t stand up to the settlers because they see no point in confronting them when the prospect of peace seems so remote. From my point of view this is mistaken; the rule of law ought to be enforced regardless and this is after all what we demand of the Palestinian Authority in dealing with their extremists.
4) I think there is a big problem with the way Israelis are perceived by outsiders. On one level I understand that it is easier to understand the motives of Palestinians they are subject to a a myriad of restrictions, they live in dire poverty, etc and we are both economically and militarily powerful. Yet the truth is that the poverty and restrictions which Palestinians face only came to the levels they have now reached because of the intifada. They are mainly a result of the violence rather than the cause of it.
I think to solve the problems here we need to stop demonizing one another and applying hate-filled labels like “Zionists” and “Settlers” and “Terrorists”. We need to deconstruct the mythology surrounding each other and remember we are dealing with fellow human beings. Blanket boycotts are not the answer.
Comment by Stephen — 21 February, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
Stephen: great words. Regarding dates, I just took a picture of Dbash Tamarim we are enjoying for the first time in our lives. It is delicious! I plan to post it on my blog one of these days. The brand is Agam Hagalil. Do you produce this type of product yourselves? maybe under this or another brand?
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 5:08 pm
Stephen -
Its good to hear about your attempts to: “live in a way that puts more into the environment than we take out”. I hear of people all over the world trying to move in this direction, which is inspiring.
Of course our attempts to create ecological sustainability are absolutely intertwined with the need to create social justice. To live with the ecosystems in harmony we must also live in social relations of equality and justice amongst our own species. For example, if we have to reduce societies airtravel and car use, this cannot be left to the market, where the poor face exclusion but the wealthy continue to waste resources. Thats why the green movement resists and creates alternatives to exploitation, war and oppression.
When you wrote about the occupation, you emphasised the need for a two state solution. Are you aware of the recent pattern of escalating settlement and intrusive infrastructural development? Because if this is allowed to continue there will be no absolutely space left for a Palestinian state on the West Bank. This is not some past injustice that we should rectify when we get round to it because we are good hearted liberals! This is a process of dispossession, ethnic cleansing and and annexation going on in front of our eyes.
Yet while you are critical of the settlement process, you seem to find ways of qualifying this criticism, and end up in practice supporting each example of injustice: You admit that there are roads which the Palestinian inhabitants of the west bank are banned from using - but you say that: “Whilst they are populated by living human beings I think this is the best way to protect the lives of the residents”. (And our concern for ‘living human beings’ should also encompass the Palestinian inhabitants?!) But therefore you in fact support what the activists here call “aparthied roads”! Only as a temporary measure of course! All the while the settlements expand and grow more permanent, in part because of the roads. And the spaces and paths of the Palestinians are sliced up up by this infrastructure, with added checkpoints, obstructions and delays between the fragments.
You then justify the wall/fence, even though you admit it “separates Palestinians from their lands” and is therefore a colossal instrument of injustice and dispossession being presently enacted.
You rightly to point out that most settlers are not ideological but economic. Sure, they are being used. And you seem to propose that they should leave only voluntarily, by the provision of a higher standard of living elsewhere. There should be no other policy initiative? You also admit that the government is unlikely to ’stand up to the settlers’.
So basically, there is an occupation, illegal under international agreements, which is currently ethnically cleansing and annexing the last viable lands where even a mini-state of Palestine could exist. And you can find reasons to justify to yourself all these things that you also think are wrong! You even blame the victims for their predicament!
We all have to take responsibility for opposing what our own governments and rulers do in our names. That’s why the main target of my activism is the British state and its policies. But that’s why you should not be so soft and forgiving about what the Israeli state is doing in your name!
All this madness, of occupation, nationalism, violence, dispossession, militarism is part of the same mad system which is destabilising our climate and our ecosystems in the pursuit of profit and unsustainable growth.
Goodbye,
Comment by Larry — 21 February, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
Stephen, don’t worry about Larry. He will never come visiting Israel or Palestine because his airplane would leave a huge carbon footprint somewhere in the sky. Larry is a far away guy who gets all his info from the internet (which he powers with a hamster). He can’t be of any help.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Fabian, keep concentrating on those dates.
Your snide interjections are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Comment by BatterseaPowerStation — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:11 pm
Battersea #61
Well said!
It really does rile me to think how this asshole is able to sit on the internet pontificating about dates, whilst just a few miles away from him 1.5 million Palestinians are locked up in an open prison.
The only extremists in this conflict is the apartheid state of Israel. This is why in the best tradition of internationalism we must get behind the call from the Palestinians for a campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions against this racist, supermacist state.
Fabian, I consider you to be no better than a fascist. Now fuck off!
Comment by Veritas — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:19 pm
It is corresponded, Veritas.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:24 pm
And it is not dates. It is Dbash Tamarim.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:25 pm
Fabian, what does it feel like to live in a state which is increasingly viewed as a pariah by people of conscience and consciiousness around the world? Eh? Does it feel good to know that now even the name Israel has become synonymous with apartheid, racism, and ethnic cleansing. On any given weekend, in towns and cities throoughout the UK, throughout the entire world, you will find people out campaigning in support of the Palestinians. You’ll be hard pressed to find people out on the streets campaigning in support of apartheid Israel. Your astoundingly patronising and repugnant post to Larry illustrates how posioned you and the majority of Israelis are by exceptionalism and racism. From every syllable of every sentence poured anti-Arab racism. Don’t you see the irony?
The brutal treatment being meted out to the Palestinians is redolent of the treatment the Jews suffered under the Nazis throughout the 1930s leading up to the Holocaust.
There will never be peace until a state founded on the ethnic cleansing of another people and which exists at their negation is brought to heel. The standard of living you enjoy while the Palestinians continue to suffer is an obscenity and an affront to humanity.
Until they are free we are all Palestinians!
Comment by Veritas — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
Veritas: I know it is useless with you, but I have to say this for the rest of the readers.
When I was living in Argentina, I used to like to talk about music. The bands that I liked, the new songs we were playing with my own band, etc. Half of the fucking country then was living under the poverty line. And two thirds of the Argentinians live in my city and its suburbs. But, no person told me ever that I shouldn’t talk about music while there are poor people in your country. Even more, all those poor people also talk about the music they like. If anyone ever came to me to say such nonsense - and I feel that not even a Socialist militant in my university would have dared to do so - he would be instantly regarded as a lunatic. It seems that you can say that regarding Israelis. Israelis cannot talk about the music they like, the food they like, the sex they like, the places they like “while there are Palestinians out there”. It is proper from a lunatic to think thus. I think that whenever Israel is discussed, some people turn into freaking lunatics. You are certainly one of those. You fuck off, you sad git.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 21 February, 2008 @ 7:58 pm
Larry,
Its not about justifying the occupation or every Israeli government policy but accepting that the conflict is complex, nuanced and that there are no easy options. There are some things that I need to clarify.
1) Buildings, roads, etc are not permanent structures, they can be knocked down. In any case ownership can be transferred, e.g. hot houses in Gaza handed over to the PA. Everything that Israelis are doing in the West Bank is reversible. Expanding and funding of existing settlements is a waste of money and unhelpful but in the end it doesn’t matter. Look what happened when Israel left Sinai and Gaza.
2) Of course I agree that our concern to protect the lives of living human beings extends to Palestinians but sometimes we have to prioritize. I believe the right to life is more important than the right to use certain roads. Roads which Palestinians are banned from are those where Israeli civilians have been killed or wounded in attacks. As I said the long term solution is to remove the settlements which these roads serve. In the meantime, if you want to talk in terms of justice, I believe the greater injustice involves giving would be murderers freedom to attack innocent civilians, even if this itself causes the smaller injustice of barring innocent Palestinians from moving freely. Put simply, I prefer to inconvenience some people in order to save the lives of others. Do you support ending baggage searches for everyone at airports because only a tiny minority of people actually have bombs in their suitcases?
It doesn’t matter that some people call these “apartheid roads”- people can use whichever rhetoric they wish- but who uses this rhetoric? From my understanding it tends to be people who don’t object to inequality in principle just those who wish that Palestinians were lording it over Israelis rather than the inverse.
3) As for the barrier, its pretty much the same logic from my perspective, better to inconvenience some people than to mourn others. As I’ve said there are no easy choices, every choice in this conflict seems to cause problems for some people.
4) The occupation may be wrong, immoral, etc but it isn’t illegal. Israel came into the West Bank after being attacked by Jordan in June 1967. Its occupation is legal according to UNSC 242 which calls for Israeli withdrawal in the context of a negotiated settlement.
5) Referring to ethnic cleansing is an other example of demonization. Palestinians are suffering under occupation, but they are not being removed from the land and the Palestinian population of the West Bank has increased by almost a million people in recent years- it doesn’t make any sense to say that ethnic cleansing is taking place. I don’t really understand why people use these terms- they’re not helpful.
6) I hope this doesn’t sound too pompous or self-righteous but I am making a stand against what my government stands for. I’ve dedicated my whole life to living in a way fundamentally opposed to capitalism and consumerism. I’ve joined a community which encourages positive encounters between Israeli-Jews and Israeli-Arabs and Israelis and Palestinians and does its best to realize this.
7) I don’t believe that settlers should be asked to leave their homes on a purely voluntary basis, in the context of a peace treaty there will be a compulsory population transfer of Jews from the West Bank. This won’t be easy but it will happen. In the interim before a peace treaty is signed, I believe the government should create a compensation arrangement so that those living over the green line can leave should they wish to. Most settlers- according to opinion polls- would take up this offer. Those who wish to stay can be moved on later once a peace agreement is signed.
I don’t agree with the more right-wing settlers, some of them seem to be not very nice people, especially in terms of their attitude to Palestinians but I do recognise that they are fellow human beings and as such I sympathize with them. They are after all being asked to give up everything they have worked for, being asked to abandon the towns they have built and the homes they have created.
I try to see things from other people’s perspective, even when I don’t agree with them. I don’t support the dream of the more ideological settlers but I do realize that I am asking them to give up on that dream. On a human level I understand that that is something that will be very painful for them and will encompass them questioning many of their most dearly held beliefs. That’s hard for anyone to do- so I am sympathetic.
Laying the blame at the feet of one party in this conflict is unfair and leads us further away from peace and justice.
Comment by Stephen — 21 February, 2008 @ 10:17 pm
Stephen wrote: “…I try to see things from other people’s perspective, even when I don’t agree with them…”
Something which you’ve certainly convinced me of, thanks.
But I can’t agree with your last line, “Laying the blame at the feet of one party in this conflict is unfair and leads us further away from peace and justice.”
“Fairness” went out of the window a while ago, as soon as tanks, helicopters and gunships were employed by ‘one side’ against the ‘other’. You’re on a socialist blog with people who, rightly, lay blame at their own government’s feet every day. The Israeli state’s oppression (there is no gentler term) of Palestinians is both politically (you seem to agree) AND morally indefensible.
Comment by BatterseaPowerStation — 21 February, 2008 @ 10:33 pm
Battersea: the Palestinians will have their own state one day. They already have a proto-state. When will they become your enemy because of their support for it? Not only the Israelis, but the Palestinians can’t ever “win” in your worldview.
Comment by Fabian from Israel — 22 February, 2008 @ 8:37 am