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	<title>Comments on: Cuba leads the way on the environment</title>
	<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404</link>
	<description>Debate and discussion between socialists</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Trent Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73857</link>
		<author>Trent Hawkins</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73857</guid>
		<description>Useful article: 

CUBA: URBAN FARMERS 'MAKE SOIL FROM SCRATCH'
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1650321/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Useful article: </p>
<p>CUBA: URBAN FARMERS &#8216;MAKE SOIL FROM SCRATCH&#8217;<br />
<a href="http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1650321/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1650321/</a></p>
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		<title>By: prianikoff</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73595</link>
		<author>prianikoff</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73595</guid>
		<description>re #16 
Actually, the UK is a major wheat producer, with the highest productivity per hectare of any country producing over 10 million tonnes per year.
(Much higher than China, India or the US which have a far higher acreage and absolute level of production)

The most recent figures I can find show the UK as having 1,837,000 hectares producing 14,288,000 tonnes
Giving a yield  7.78 Mt/ha compared to the world average of 2.75 Mt/ha.

Obviously, this involves heavy use of nitrate fertiliser, pesticides and selective breeding of crops which are resistant to rainfall and mould.
China, India and the US, the world's biggest producers of wheat, have greater problems with drought.

The need for UK imports arises from the quality of soft wheat produced in the UK climate. Normally about 7-10% of hard-wheat is imported from Canada, Australia or the US for bread production.

According to a reply in Hansard UK Imports of wheat were as follows:-

Thousand tonnes 
2002 1368
2003 985
2004 784
2005 1175
2006 1162
Note: 2006 data are provisional

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070517/text/70517w0014.htm

Cuba doesn't really produce wheat as a major crop, but is a maize and rice producer. The most recent figures I can find for Cuban production show the following:-

Maize
 132,247 hectares 360,000 Mt  2.72 Mt/ha  (World average yield 3.41Mt/ha)

Rice
 204,600 hectares 715,800 Mt 3.50 Mt/ha (World average yield 3.37 Mt/ha)

http://nue.okstate.edu/Crop_Information/World_Wheat_Production.htm

Which indicates that Cuba's productivity levels compare favourably to Mexico's in Maize, but are slightly poorer in Rice. China has better productivity in both crops.

So my point stands - permaculture and city gardens can be a solution for getting vegetable crops to urban dwellers without heavy petrol use and maybe produce some meat protein too.  But in terms of feeding people in the most heavily populated countries, the case that nitrogen based fertilisers and mechanised agriculture can be totally dispensed with, remains unproven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re #16<br />
Actually, the UK is a major wheat producer, with the highest productivity per hectare of any country producing over 10 million tonnes per year.<br />
(Much higher than China, India or the US which have a far higher acreage and absolute level of production)</p>
<p>The most recent figures I can find show the UK as having 1,837,000 hectares producing 14,288,000 tonnes<br />
Giving a yield  7.78 Mt/ha compared to the world average of 2.75 Mt/ha.</p>
<p>Obviously, this involves heavy use of nitrate fertiliser, pesticides and selective breeding of crops which are resistant to rainfall and mould.<br />
China, India and the US, the world&#8217;s biggest producers of wheat, have greater problems with drought.</p>
<p>The need for UK imports arises from the quality of soft wheat produced in the UK climate. Normally about 7-10% of hard-wheat is imported from Canada, Australia or the US for bread production.</p>
<p>According to a reply in Hansard UK Imports of wheat were as follows:-</p>
<p>Thousand tonnes<br />
2002 1368<br />
2003 985<br />
2004 784<br />
2005 1175<br />
2006 1162<br />
Note: 2006 data are provisional</p>
<p><a href="http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070517/text/70517w0014.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070517/text/70517w0014.htm</a></p>
<p>Cuba doesn&#8217;t really produce wheat as a major crop, but is a maize and rice producer. The most recent figures I can find for Cuban production show the following:-</p>
<p>Maize<br />
 132,247 hectares 360,000 Mt  2.72 Mt/ha  (World average yield 3.41Mt/ha)</p>
<p>Rice<br />
 204,600 hectares 715,800 Mt 3.50 Mt/ha (World average yield 3.37 Mt/ha)</p>
<p><a href="http://nue.okstate.edu/Crop_Information/World_Wheat_Production.htm" rel="nofollow">http://nue.okstate.edu/Crop_Information/World_Wheat_Production.htm</a></p>
<p>Which indicates that Cuba&#8217;s productivity levels compare favourably to Mexico&#8217;s in Maize, but are slightly poorer in Rice. China has better productivity in both crops.</p>
<p>So my point stands - permaculture and city gardens can be a solution for getting vegetable crops to urban dwellers without heavy petrol use and maybe produce some meat protein too.  But in terms of feeding people in the most heavily populated countries, the case that nitrogen based fertilisers and mechanised agriculture can be totally dispensed with, remains unproven.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Sequin</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73591</link>
		<author>Rob Sequin</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73591</guid>
		<description>Funny how all the US haters blame the Embargo for Cuba's problems. Fidel is such a great guy right? 

You really should know about Cuba before you blame everything on the Embargo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny how all the US haters blame the Embargo for Cuba&#8217;s problems. Fidel is such a great guy right? </p>
<p>You really should know about Cuba before you blame everything on the Embargo.</p>
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		<title>By: Zane A</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73554</link>
		<author>Zane A</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73554</guid>
		<description>The question of being able to grow staples like wheat and corn is an important one. I would be interested to see how much of those foods are imported to the UK.

I read somewhere that you can get more crop yield using organic growing techniques (compared to standard agrobusiness methods) but that the plots need to be smaller and its more labour intensive.

I don't think the use of oxen in Cuba is something socialists/ environmentalists should universally seek to get back to- I'm sure that you could make an eco-friendly solar or electric tractor which does not compress the soil as much as the traditional tractor.

Whether or not petro-based fertilisers are required to feed the current population is another important consideration.

Marx observed the initial stages of the 'metabolic rift' whereby as england moved from feudalism to capitalism there was a tendency for food to be cultivated where it always had been but the new mode saw it being bought to the cities at a much greater rate. When people were living off the land their compost and faecal waste would ostensibly be re-ploughed into their immediate plot of land.

With the advent of capitalism though, nutrient was 'robbed' from the country and taken to the city, and then 'pumped into the Thames, at great expense'.

I think herein lies the solution. If it is possible to grow   large amounts of crops without synthetic fertilisers there would need to be a program which harnesses urban compost and greenwaste- possibly in a network of worm farms- and returns rich soil to the farms. 

Sewage could also be partially treated (and methane harvested in the process) and then used to irrigate crops. This is not uncommon in China. If you believe there are health issues with using sewage to grow food crops, then certainly you must agree it could be used to grow things like cotton, hemp, plantation timber etc.

Hemp and timber by products could then be composted in the worm farms producing soil for food crops.

I don't think this sort of stuff would be easy- there would need to be a massive public works program to establish these networks of waste harvesting and recycling. But I think fundamentally it would be possible to eliminate the use of most fossil fuel based fertilisers without causing a massive drop in food production.

And at the end of the day, using soil as a substrate for chemicals (i.e. the standard agrobusiness mode of agriculture) destroys the soil's natural richness. Part of the reason the Cuban transition is so impressive is that they addressed this problem and successfully rehabilitated  highly depleted soils. 

Oh and who said Cuba is perfect? Not me. But for some odd reason they have really well resourced scientific organisations who had been working on the shift to organics for years in the leadup to the collapse of the USSR.

Cuba is not the only country subject to a crushing blockade but unlike North Korea, Palestine or pre-invasion Iraq they manage to get everyone fed and in a highly ecologically sustainable manner. Thats pretty damn impressive I reckon. Which is to say nothing of their international doctors, their healthcare and education system, marine and forestry reserves, judicial system... And women and young people are well represented in the Cuban parliament, with a fair turnover of candidates in the last several elections...

It aint perfect- but there are some pretty impressive aspects to the Cuban model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question of being able to grow staples like wheat and corn is an important one. I would be interested to see how much of those foods are imported to the UK.</p>
<p>I read somewhere that you can get more crop yield using organic growing techniques (compared to standard agrobusiness methods) but that the plots need to be smaller and its more labour intensive.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the use of oxen in Cuba is something socialists/ environmentalists should universally seek to get back to- I&#8217;m sure that you could make an eco-friendly solar or electric tractor which does not compress the soil as much as the traditional tractor.</p>
<p>Whether or not petro-based fertilisers are required to feed the current population is another important consideration.</p>
<p>Marx observed the initial stages of the &#8216;metabolic rift&#8217; whereby as england moved from feudalism to capitalism there was a tendency for food to be cultivated where it always had been but the new mode saw it being bought to the cities at a much greater rate. When people were living off the land their compost and faecal waste would ostensibly be re-ploughed into their immediate plot of land.</p>
<p>With the advent of capitalism though, nutrient was &#8216;robbed&#8217; from the country and taken to the city, and then &#8216;pumped into the Thames, at great expense&#8217;.</p>
<p>I think herein lies the solution. If it is possible to grow   large amounts of crops without synthetic fertilisers there would need to be a program which harnesses urban compost and greenwaste- possibly in a network of worm farms- and returns rich soil to the farms. </p>
<p>Sewage could also be partially treated (and methane harvested in the process) and then used to irrigate crops. This is not uncommon in China. If you believe there are health issues with using sewage to grow food crops, then certainly you must agree it could be used to grow things like cotton, hemp, plantation timber etc.</p>
<p>Hemp and timber by products could then be composted in the worm farms producing soil for food crops.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this sort of stuff would be easy- there would need to be a massive public works program to establish these networks of waste harvesting and recycling. But I think fundamentally it would be possible to eliminate the use of most fossil fuel based fertilisers without causing a massive drop in food production.</p>
<p>And at the end of the day, using soil as a substrate for chemicals (i.e. the standard agrobusiness mode of agriculture) destroys the soil&#8217;s natural richness. Part of the reason the Cuban transition is so impressive is that they addressed this problem and successfully rehabilitated  highly depleted soils. </p>
<p>Oh and who said Cuba is perfect? Not me. But for some odd reason they have really well resourced scientific organisations who had been working on the shift to organics for years in the leadup to the collapse of the USSR.</p>
<p>Cuba is not the only country subject to a crushing blockade but unlike North Korea, Palestine or pre-invasion Iraq they manage to get everyone fed and in a highly ecologically sustainable manner. Thats pretty damn impressive I reckon. Which is to say nothing of their international doctors, their healthcare and education system, marine and forestry reserves, judicial system&#8230; And women and young people are well represented in the Cuban parliament, with a fair turnover of candidates in the last several elections&#8230;</p>
<p>It aint perfect- but there are some pretty impressive aspects to the Cuban model.</p>
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		<title>By: Joepolitix</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73550</link>
		<author>Joepolitix</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73550</guid>
		<description>In other Latin American news, further proof of the barbaric, fascist nature of the scum leading the slaveholder rebellion in Bolivia:

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42539

It would seem they're trying to provoke violent confrontation -typical behavior of CIA destabilisation campaigns. Notice how the international news media have largely ignored this events. What are the odds that when Movement for Socialism supporters respond in kind it will be held up as an unprovoked act violence incited by Morales' "divisive policy".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other Latin American news, further proof of the barbaric, fascist nature of the scum leading the slaveholder rebellion in Bolivia:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42539" rel="nofollow">http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42539</a></p>
<p>It would seem they&#8217;re trying to provoke violent confrontation -typical behavior of CIA destabilisation campaigns. Notice how the international news media have largely ignored this events. What are the odds that when Movement for Socialism supporters respond in kind it will be held up as an unprovoked act violence incited by Morales&#8217; &#8220;divisive policy&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard T</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73541</link>
		<author>Howard T</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73541</guid>
		<description>Cuba a perfect society? There can be no 'perfect' society until imperialism is overcome and societies with a history of under-development are allowed to flourish.
On this particular development, I would tend to trust Derek Wall's judgment in terms of mapping out its significance, especially as his analysis is based on supporting a country struggling to develop 90 miles from Miami and suffering the blockade. Can we learn anything from Cuba? It's in our interests to do so, rather than dismissing any progress because of prejudice. This is hardly the Soviet Union reporting cattle feed statistics as part of the five year plan for the Nigni-Novgorod Autonomous Region after all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cuba a perfect society? There can be no &#8216;perfect&#8217; society until imperialism is overcome and societies with a history of under-development are allowed to flourish.<br />
On this particular development, I would tend to trust Derek Wall&#8217;s judgment in terms of mapping out its significance, especially as his analysis is based on supporting a country struggling to develop 90 miles from Miami and suffering the blockade. Can we learn anything from Cuba? It&#8217;s in our interests to do so, rather than dismissing any progress because of prejudice. This is hardly the Soviet Union reporting cattle feed statistics as part of the five year plan for the Nigni-Novgorod Autonomous Region after all!</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73535</link>
		<author>Ed</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73535</guid>
		<description>Is anyone saying Cuba is a perfect society?

I don't think any socialist thinks it's perfect. How could it be? It is a pretty impressive place however, compared to most other third world countries, considering that it's been under a harsh economic blockade for decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is anyone saying Cuba is a perfect society?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any socialist thinks it&#8217;s perfect. How could it be? It is a pretty impressive place however, compared to most other third world countries, considering that it&#8217;s been under a harsh economic blockade for decades.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Sequin</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73534</link>
		<author>Rob Sequin</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73534</guid>
		<description>Cuba might be green when you fly over it but it is VERY polluted. You socialists should really do your homework on Cuba before assuming that it's a perfect society. 

Don't get me wrong, I love Cuba but it is not the perfect society you think it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cuba might be green when you fly over it but it is VERY polluted. You socialists should really do your homework on Cuba before assuming that it&#8217;s a perfect society. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I love Cuba but it is not the perfect society you think it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Claridge</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73503</link>
		<author>Robert Claridge</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 09:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73503</guid>
		<description>The point that needs to be made to John Robert Whitley about material poverty in Cuba and more particularly in the less developed countries where the vast majority of the world's population lives is that precisely they are poor materially because the majority in the wealthy nations are materially rich. It's called imperialism: the super-exploitation of oppressed nations by a handful of oppressor nations. It allows the ruling class in the oppressor nations to bribe (for a period of time)a large section of the working class with high material standards of living. These are unsustainable economically ( with the advent of the credit crisis) and ecologically. However, Whitley does not want this affluent lifestyle to disappear. So he thinks that socialists in Britain should defend living off the backs of the rest of the world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point that needs to be made to John Robert Whitley about material poverty in Cuba and more particularly in the less developed countries where the vast majority of the world&#8217;s population lives is that precisely they are poor materially because the majority in the wealthy nations are materially rich. It&#8217;s called imperialism: the super-exploitation of oppressed nations by a handful of oppressor nations. It allows the ruling class in the oppressor nations to bribe (for a period of time)a large section of the working class with high material standards of living. These are unsustainable economically ( with the advent of the credit crisis) and ecologically. However, Whitley does not want this affluent lifestyle to disappear. So he thinks that socialists in Britain should defend living off the backs of the rest of the world?</p>
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		<title>By: Adamski</title>
		<link>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73498</link>
		<author>Adamski</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2404#comment-73498</guid>
		<description>#8 As I understand it permaculture is actually quite different in key respects to organic gardening - but I'm not an expert on this stuff.

What is interesting about the Cuban example, is that normally these ideas of permaculture are tried out in a lifestyle way, on a small scale. There has been some attempt in Cuba to re-orientate the entire economy/society on a mass scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#8 As I understand it permaculture is actually quite different in key respects to organic gardening - but I&#8217;m not an expert on this stuff.</p>
<p>What is interesting about the Cuban example, is that normally these ideas of permaculture are tried out in a lifestyle way, on a small scale. There has been some attempt in Cuba to re-orientate the entire economy/society on a mass scale.</p>
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