Comments on: Torturing young people New Labour style…

By: gw

gw — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:43:44 +0000

although the prison system is far from ideal and all these points can be repeated again and again lets not forget that the young people in secure training centres are there against their will and some are violent. Whether this is caused by mental disorder, upbringing or inate badness in beisdes the point. If these people are behaving in a way which is violent, a danger to themselves or other, then they NEED TO BE RESTRAINED. If restraint were completely removed from this environment chaos would develop. That is not to say that restraint training and awareness does not need to improve as it clearly does but the authorities have a duty to protect the other people within this environment and the restrained person themselves. From first hand experience in this environment i know that restraint is used for the individual who is being restrained own protection more than any other reason.

the figures might look shocking, but without restraint we would see many more suicide and violent deaths of young persons in such places.

By: Halshall

Halshall — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:26:32 +0000

#17 Louise

‘I don’t think we disagree on any of this really’

Thanks for that; I get that feeling too.
It doesn’t suprise me numbers of those with mental health problems in prisons is increasing. I suspect that levels of stress and despair in society at large are as well, with consequences that you can imagine.
As per my view on Mind. In my experience, it helps a lot of vulnerable people who would otherwise be without support or hope of some kind of a life without a network of contacts and friends; but it cannot deal with the wider social issues that lead to the causes of mental ill-health.

By: Louise

Louise — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:34:17 +0000

Halshall, I am not disagreeing with you and yeah, reform/revolution compliments but at the moment there isn’t the mass workers party we can look to. It doesn’t mean we give up on the idea but I just think we have to be realistic and work with what we have got at the moment.

Practically there are ways of campaigning and working alongside orgs that are trying to make a difference. Actually, Halshall, I don’t think we disagree on any of this really.

Regarding the numbers of people with mental distress in the prison system the numbers are increasing.

Btw: if you don’t mind me asking, but is your opinion of MIND?

By: Halshall

Halshall — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:21:00 +0000

I draw your attention to the Gurdian article ‘Overcrowding blamed for 37% rise in suicides among inmates in failing prison system’ 02/01/08.
Sure we can campaign for a better prison system (and better still non-incarceration alternatives)and all power to those that do.
I have been previously involved in both intermediate treatment and residential care.
Currently I work as a volunteer helper for Mind.
An estimated 25% of the UK adult population suffer from mental health problems in any one year, in prisons I guess it’s higher (I don’t have the official figure).
The UK prisons are bursting with overcrowding and this has been allowed to happen by politicians who are tied to electoral opportunism and the law & order agenda.
Certainly it is vital to campaign against these inhumane effects, but you also have to have real and effective alternatives.
These require a radical political approach which IMO can only be acheived by also changing the inequitable nature of the society we have to live in.
A socialist solution needs fundemental social change. This isn’t just a platitude, the need for reforms is still all too evident, but the root causes go much wider.
It is Not an either reforms or revolution argument, one complements the other.

By: Halshall

Halshall — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:05:51 +0000

Comrades, don’t give up on the need for a mass party of the left, because you also have to campaign for reforms in the here and now.

And every reform won however small, just like every demand raised for workers and won, every tiny victory for civil rights, like the pressure on the Neo-Cons to close Guantanamo or the march on Parliament Square, every hospital or PCA saved from privatisation or closure or indeed greater use of ‘community sentencing’ rather than incarceration etc, is a small step along the way; however as Neill says in #11 ‘ Labour governments are no longer reformist or progressive.’
So sooner or later you’re going to need that genuine Socialist government and party to really make a challenge to the system as a whole.
It would be a great mistake to think you can have fundemental reform that would eliminate poverty and disadvantage once and forall without also changing the system that depends on it for the exploitation that’s the basis of profit.
Those challenges happen in the here and now and not in some mythical future.
The fight for legalisation of homosexuality and abortion were progressive reforms won under capitalism.
The fight against Aparteid was a victory for all those who supported the AAC, (including a one time radical called Peter Hain! ), but we still have to challenge the system whilst fighting for those reforms.

By: Louise

Louise — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:05:17 +0000

Thanks Pete.
“Call me a reformist but better a few lives saved today

I agree with you on that. And there are people and orgs who do need the support and solidarity.

Happy new year, comrade!

By: Pete Brown

Pete Brown — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:28:12 +0000

Very moving stuff at this time year, the penal system from top to bottom is crap to say the least. Neil, Andy, Louise, good stuff. While we sit twiddling our placards waiting for the mass movement and the revolution nothing happens. Perhaps the use of the word ‘riotousness’ in the Benn article is what we want. But in the meantime lets support all those out there who have actually rolled their sleeves up and are trying to do something. Call me a reformist but better a few lives saved today……..

By: Louise

Louise — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:36:48 +0000

Halshall: “You need to build a mass party that doesn’t sell out when it comes to challenging the priorities of profit and the exploitation that creates that profit in all it’s class -ridden forms”.

But this isn’t gonna happen in the immediate future. Sorry to sound pessimistic but everytime the “build the mass party” is mentioned I despair. It reminds me of Del Boy from Only Fools when he says, “Next year we will be millioniares”… But it doesn’t happen rather like the belief that the next big attempt of building a radical alternative to NL will be The One. But it is a pipedream.

Most of us know that NL is a load of offensive cack (even us Labour Lefties)

I have sympathy with what Neil says and I agree with final sentence: “How that is to be done and what form it takes is where many of us have different views as evident on this web site”… and it is bang on the money.

I just think waiting for the mass workers party to develop, evolve and to challenge the neo-liberal project won’t happen in the immediate future.

Therefore, what do we do? Do we wait until the Next Big One comes along? No, we can still challenge and work together even at the moment. There are orgs we can work with who trying to challenge and put pressure NL and their vicious law and order project. The orgs Neil mentions but

I would also mention INQUEST, Women in Prison, Women in Secure Hospitals, and so on. Yes, they put reformist demands on the state but what else are we do to in the meantime? Wait for the mass workers party? The revolution? At least we could show solidarity with these orgs and also grass roots orgs that exist in the here and now then waiting for the pipedream.

By: Neil Williams

Neil Williams — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:02:44 +0000

I dont diagree with you Halsahll (post 10).
My definition of a Socialist government is more agin to that of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (and that's only a starting point)rather than Atlee/Wilson in the UK.
Labour governments are no longer reformist or progessive and i agree that means we do need to build a mass party of the left that can unite all those who want reform, progress and a Socialist society based on need not greed,people and not profit, a society in which we are all valued.
How that is to be done and what form it takes is where many of us have different views as evident on this web site.

By: Halshall

Halshall — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:21:28 +0000

#9 Neil,
fine but you state in para 4 ‘like so many other needy reforms, we probably will need a
Socilist government ‘.
Problem, we have to many had a ‘Socialist’ government and it solved only a limited amount to do with the evils of the youth and penal system, whether under Attlee, Wilson or Callaghan.
And under New Labour with it’s toal committment to the ‘market’with no reforms (in the traditional sense).
A ‘Socialist’ (read ‘Social Democratic reformist’) government seeks electoral advantage by pandering to the system of exploitation that exists, and that continues to marginalise whole sections of W/C youth. There may have been some hope back in the 60’s with the abolition of hanging, and the legalising of abortion and homosexuality for example, but now in the era of profit and consumerism, above all else ?
So how do you change a cruel, repressive penal system that’s an inherent part of it ?
You need to build a mass party that doesn’t sell out when it comes to challenging the priorities of profit and the exploitation that creates that profit in all it’s class -ridden forms.
Sorry to sound rather cliched.
But there are no shortcuts.